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Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

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Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "gender microagression”?

It's when a guy from another department walks into a room and asks for a developer, unconsciously ignores the female developer closest to him and starts addressing the male developer. It's when a guy kindly asks a woman to stop debating a technical spec because she wouldn't understand the details (even though she's more technical than he is). It's when a sales guy makes a joke with his female colleague that her eye m…

I don't know about other departments coming in to ask for an engineer, but when it's an engineer looking for another engineer on a different team, it usually takes the form of asking openly in that teams hipchat/slack/irc room (as gender neutral as it gets) or specifically addressing one particular engineer (usually because that engineer is known for being great at providing advice or technical details on the issue at hand)

I've never once witnessed that second one and would be shocked if I did witness that. I've been around long enough that if that were still a problem, I would expect to have witnessed it firsthand.

I know the third happens (my sister is in sales and has been subjected to it).

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#72
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was article on HN some days ago maybe even weeks which was showing IT compared to other fields. It was about how many women work in field and for IT it was lot less than other. It was showing percentage in years so in 80's there was a lot more women in IT than now. Sorry but cannot find article, maybe someone will have link.

I'm also generally curious about the figures for men in female dominated industries. I'm a senior software engineer now, but I graduated with a degree that would have had me working in an industry that was overwhelmingly female (fashion). I think it's like 95% female. Most of my classmates were female. I didn't go into that industry because other opportunities cropped up and because that industry doesn't pay anyone,…

I worked in the web advertisement on a big fashion account in a 80% female team. the PM was promoting women just because they are women and she even wanted to hire some support engineer interviewed her and seeing that she had a good feeling because she was in a similar feminist assocation than her she hired her as a regional project manager with double pay and they hired a support engineer in india.

trust me. the environment we are making women and feminism grow in is insane for men as for women and against work ethics.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#73
post #69

A few questions: What does it mean to "leave the field"? Does that mean to no longer practice low-level work or to leave the industry entirely for another industry? If it is the former, does moving into management or another complementary area (like moving from engineering to product management) qualify as leaving the field? So what I've always been curious about is what percentage of women leave other fields? It wou…

> What does it mean to "leave the field"? You can read it in the linked article: http://fortune.com/2014/10/02/women-leave-tech-culture/ * "716 women who left tech" * "I have collected stories from 716 other women who have left the tech industry" * "Of the 716 women surveyed, 465 are not working today." * "Two-hundred-fifty-one are employed in non-tech jobs, and 45 of those are running their own companies. A whopping…

How do they make a living if they aren't working at all?

That seems like a shockingly high figure of people who have the means to avoid any sort of labor productivity. I can only conclude that "are not working today" is loosely defined or that these people were unfit for working at all, since someone that has the means to quit work and not have to look for other work elsewhere probably hasn't lead a very rigorous labor existence.

Also, this appears to be study of only the ones that left. I'm certain I could find 716 men that left the tech industry too, and come up with a set of reasons why they left. Looks like a classic case of selection bias. There doesn't appear to be one women who stayed in the industry in that study. Does that mean I should conclude from this study that 100% of women leave tech? Simply put, you need to survey more than just those that left.

That study comes across as far more biased than the biases it's trying to combat.

It's far more interesting to discuss base rates. Start with a sample of women in tech, follow them over n-years (you can get a good representative sample by choosing different cohorts like those that are recent grads to those with 5-10 years industry experience) and do the same with men. After 2-3 years check out how many from from each gender from that sample have left the industry. Interview them to find out why.

My ex was a documentary filmmaker interested in social causes and whatnot and I've seen how the sausage is made firsthand and know how data and statistics are twisted to support an agenda. Good statistics that strive to be impartial almost never produces numbers as "story-worthy" as the ones from that study, which means you need to question the numbers presented and also ask which figures were conveniently omitted.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#74
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

now this will sound sexist. believe me I am not - I'm just a dev and I wish we had more women in the field for reason I won't articulate here - take this as 'seen from vc eyes': on a big enterprise, the kind of which people work for more than ten years, maternity leave pay is just a fraction of the whole worker working life - say you work at a company ten years, it's just about 10% of productivity lost. less if you f…

Why do you assume that a female VC won't do the exact same calculation and still refuse funding? Women aren't some secret cabal that looks out for each other. They are literally normal people and just as nasty on average as everyone else.

I assume that male VC are worse at balancing the maternity calculation with the additional energy, motivation and intellectual skills a woman could bring to the team. Well that's a weak assumption and I have no data to back it, but I'm not at all naive enough to think they are in a secret cabal looking for each other.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#75
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also generally curious about the figures for men in female dominated industries. I'm a senior software engineer now, but I graduated with a degree that would have had me working in an industry that was overwhelmingly female (fashion). I think it's like 95% female. Most of my classmates were female. I didn't go into that industry because other opportunities cropped up and because that industry doesn't pay anyone,…

I worked in the web advertisement on a big fashion account in a 80% female team. the PM was promoting women just because they are women and she even wanted to hire some support engineer interviewed her and seeing that she had a good feeling because she was in a similar feminist assocation than her she hired her as a regional project manager with double pay and they hired a support engineer in india. trust me. the env…

Strangely, I'm not terribly bothered by your story because an attitude like that strongly held means there is little to no chance I'd end up in such a toxic environment for me. This big upside is that it saves the time and energy possibly I would have invested in a place that is going to suck.

As I grow older I've learned it's not merely enough to know where you want to want. You also need to know where you don't want to work. Extreme overtly environments like that make that choice really simple.

There will always be people workplaces where such bigotry thrives. We should minimize how common such workplaces are. At the same time, there is a benefit of have a few workplaces here and there that attract and retains such people because it keeps those people from entering the labor market and being employed at a company with men and women who would rather not deal with such bigoted bullshit.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#76
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does it mean to "leave the field"? You can read it in the linked article: http://fortune.com/2014/10/02/women-leave-tech-culture/ * "716 women who left tech" * "I have collected stories from 716 other women who have left the tech industry" * "Of the 716 women surveyed, 465 are not working today." * "Two-hundred-fifty-one are employed in non-tech jobs, and 45 of those are running their own companies. A whopping…

How do they make a living if they aren't working at all? That seems like a shockingly high figure of people who have the means to avoid any sort of labor productivity. I can only conclude that "are not working today" is loosely defined or that these people were unfit for working at all, since someone that has the means to quit work and not have to look for other work elsewhere probably hasn't lead a very rigorous lab…

You're right the whole "sexism in tech" is probably not a problem at all. It's all totally made up. It can't possibly be that bad. /s

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#77
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never worked for a company which pays employees based on skill How many companies claim to be a "meritocracy"? If it's a big lie, we should admit it.

Negotiating is also a skill. Most companies are negotiation meritocracies.

They claim to be technical skill/programming meritocracies.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#78
I agree there is a problem, but is it ever frustrating having to tolerate completely fallacious statistics and bogus metrics every time someone talks about this. That sets the conversation back.

There is no such thing as equally qualified for a promotion. To pretend that performance is a simple formula with two inputs is being disingenuous.

It is a pipeline problem, because I have interviewed zero females and 100 males. I've never even received a woman's resume.

Any study related to people being more likely to hire, or pay more, involving names being switched on a resume, doesn't make sense. Nobody hires a resume, they call you in for an interview.

VCs investing disproportionately in male CEOs is hardly surprising because even if they have no bias, they know their money is on the line for someone who will be up against the rest of the tech and business world, with all of its bias.

Diversity quotas are harmful. Great, now nobody takes you seriously not just because they're biased to begin with but also because you only got the job over more qualified applicants to fill a quota. That isn't helping anybody. A much better option is to get more women to apply.

I have actually taken bias training and yes, I'm biased as hell. I don't like this fact and try to correct it. I also point it out to my male peers. But it's really hard to overcome when nobody has non-junk data and nobody is showing up to interview.

And are we allowed to be open to the fact that maybe, on average, women are weaker performers in tech? It seems like that is not allowed to be an option. It should also be a possibility that they're actually stronger performers in tech (I bet you reached for the down arrow before getting to that sentence). Pretending everyone must have equal ability and 50% of executives and 50% of programmers should be women doesn't get us anywhere.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#79
So I noticed that maternity leave is cited often, but that strikes me as a lesser problem in tech relative to the cost of housing. Raising a family in San Francisco is not a cheap proposition. Rent keeps rising in the Bay Area.

Let's do a thought experiment.

Lets say a man and a women in tech both moved here 5 years ago and each got small rent-controlled studio apartments for about $1000/month. Let's say they met and started dating two years ago. They decide they want to move in together. They can forego one dwelling and share a studio apartment, or they can look on the market. They look around for a one-bedroom. Two years ago, a one bedroom is probably going for $2500 a month. Fast forward to today and they decide to have a kid. Everything is great for the first 1-2 years, but by 2017, they feel like they need a 2-bedroom. They start looking around and see that the only options cost about $5000 to $6000 month. That's a huge cost of living increase before the cost of child-rearing and is far more likely to drive people (men and women) out of the industry than unfavorable maternity leave policies.

In the thought experiment above, both a man and a woman both leave tech in SF together once they are forced out of the area by the conflict between housing prices and raising a family. The different is that the age distribution for men is likely to much broader than for women because of the biological clock. A man marrying and having a kid could likely be anywhere from 27 or so to past 40, where the range for women is likely to have approximately the same lower bound, but a much lower higher bound. I suspect 33 or so. This would suggest that housing prices are more likely to prematurely end the careers of women in tech in San Francisco.

Re: Think women in tech is just a pipeline problem?

#80
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they didn't know, did they. But I would say that with such good results, they might want to increase it even further. 18 weeks is still rather short.

I'm sorry, but paying someone to take off for more than 1/3 of the year? Is this based on how long they are with the company before said leave? 4.5 months of maternity leave is very generous, and honestly enough for a physical recovery and to spend time with the baby. I'd even be in favor of 4-8 weeks maternity leave for new dads. I'm all for maternity leave, I think it's important, and there are too many companies t…

Raising it from 12 to 18 clearly had a very positive effect. I'd wager that there is more to be had by raising it further. So this is a cold hard HR calculation - not something I suggest they do out of altruism. Although that would be OK too.

Just for perspective, where I live 52 weeks is mandated by law. Now, a private company doesn't have to offer full payment during that period (or any), but it's quite common to do. Personally, I have a hard time imagining passing my child on to day care at the age of 4 months. So that means at least one of the parents needs to stay out of work. For various reasons, that usually ends up being the mother.

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