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Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

bbc.co.uk

71–80 of 107 posts

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#71

What kind of capital controls? in this situation it is quite an oxymoron. With a different currency you can control the exchange rate or limit how much one is allowed to exchange, however Greece still has the same internal currency - the Euro. You don't have a Greek euro only - its the same currency. To me all these conflicting reports smell like panic; decision makers just don't know what to do now, and the BBC does…

Interesting - just tried to Google translate into Greek, but apparently there are no words in their language for "repay your debts!"

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#72

Its times like these that I seriously consider buying more bitcoins. Capital controls are totally unjust, in a free country. And it can happen in any country. The governments need to get their act together, instead of punishing innocent citizens. Why does a centrally controlled currency even need to exist in the first place?

[deleted]

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#73
post #10

As I understand it, one of the major underlying issues this whole time (aside from the silliness of trying to integrate Greece's economy with Germany's) was the ECB's refusal to act as the lender of last resort. This seems like an affirmation of that. If Greece exits the Euro, I wonder if that will embolden other countries to do the same.

I think the ECB is actually not allowed to do that, because Europe (better: The countries of the Euro Zone) is not a debt union. If the Countries were paying for each other regardless of structural reforms, Europe would need to be constructed in a different way (with an actual central government). To address your other point: I think the horrible situation that will arise in Greece in the following weeks/months will…

No, if Greece exits then Italy, Spain, and France will be the next to get the treatment. A Grexit will mean the end of the beginning of the end for the EU and a move towards nationalism and/or fascism across the rest of Europe.

Most countries have growing anti-EU nationalist movements, and ass-raping Greece isn't going to make them less popular.

But the IMF have no interest in a strong Europe, because before 2008 European policy was heading in an aggressively anti-corporate direction.

A bleeding and uncertain Europe with a population terrified of poverty and old age is much more to their liking.

Remember total QE lending to banks is the far side of $2.5tn, and most of it is secured against assets that are clearly worthless.

The IMF itself is happy to agitate against austerity when it suits its political aims, and to hand out money that's unlikely to be repaid: see also, Ukraine.

So this is a purely political pantomime. Greek solvency is simply a pretext for political power plays - another attempt to enforce the usual neo-liberal "reform" agenda which aims to destroy the last century's traditions of socially responsible government spending.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#74

It's about time. Greece has been behaving like a gambling addict, asking for money to repay the old debts only to waste them in expensive restaurants, buying iPhones, and gambling even more.

Gambling addict? What an incredibly unfair and childish characterisation. Greece is not a person, Greece is a nation state. It has implemented severe fiscal cutbacks after being forced to by its creditors. Cutbacks which have ruined the country's economy, massively increased poverty, and made it more difficult to pay back its debts. Now its people have voted in a government that wishes to make different reforms. Ones…

It's hard to say the austerity measures are to blame for their economic downturn. The Greek economy has by some measures continued on the path started by the financial crisis and by some measures improved (bank capitalisation, budget surplus before debt payments). If they have a recession at the same time as austerity it's a bit of a stretch to say the cutbacks ruined the economy. I'd also say that Syriza is a pretty hard left wing party, of whose proposals I've seen little that doesn't amount to "borrow more and spend more". Their election rhetoric was "we shouldn't have to repay because that's insulting to us".

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#75
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not imposing capital restrictions is suicide, i don't know if Yanis varoufakis is an economical genius a madman or simply amateurish.

He has an impossible job - when taxes are not paid, people retire at forty, government jobs pay people even higher salaries because they actually turn up, then any chance of balancing the books is looking like a Greek tragedy.

Please stop repeating things you don't actually know are true. Greeks work hard and don't retire at 40. Their work ethic is not the problem. Not paying taxes is a problem. The amount of pensions paid is also a problem. Individual Greek people are the victim as much as the lenders whose loans are defaulted on (iincluding me, via my country's contributions)

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#76
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I am certainly sympathetic to the Greeks for the hardships they have faced and will undoubtedly face in the years to come, it is incredibly unfair to deny the Greeks' own responsibility in all this. Nobody is denying that fact. But it seems you are forgetting that Greece made a lot of tough decisions for its people when asked by its creditors to "reform" yet it is just not sustainable, it's like asking the gr…

> you are forgetting that Greece made a lot of tough decisions for its people when asked by its creditors to "reform" yet it is just not sustainable, it's like asking the greeks to commit suicide. No, I am not forgetting this. The Greek people are certainly suffering from the reforms. But this suffering would have happened anyway, with or without the Euro. Greece has made such a mess of its finances, in a number of w…

> It is this free trade that Germany is profiting from, not the Euro currency.

Once again a blatant falsehood.

When economically strong and weaker countries share a currency the stronger countries benefit, because it pushes the value of their currency down. This means they can export effectively, especially to the countries who suddenly have a stronger currency with more purchasing power than they otherwise would have had.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#77
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I am certainly sympathetic to the Greeks for the hardships they have faced and will undoubtedly face in the years to come, it is incredibly unfair to deny the Greeks' own responsibility in all this. This entire mess started with Greece not having its finances in order, and essentially lying about this for years to the rest of the Eurogroup. After it became clear how dire the situation was, the Eurogroup stepped…

> While I am certainly sympathetic to the Greeks for the hardships they have faced and will undoubtedly face in the years to come, it is incredibly unfair to deny the Greeks' own responsibility in all this. Nobody is denying that fact. But it seems you are forgetting that Greece made a lot of tough decisions for its people when asked by its creditors to "reform" yet it is just not sustainable, it's like asking the gr…

> And who do you think helped cook the books? Goldman Sachs

Did GS get any "punishment" for this? And does this take away all guilt from Greece?

> The euro is an insane experiment anyway. It cannot work. Too many structural and economical differences between euro countries.

As someone without an economics background, I'm interested to know what these insurmountable differences are?

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How come a poor slovakia should fund the lifestyle of lazy greeks? The Greeks are not lazy. Suffering is not lazy.

They retired at 61, whilst in Northern Europe we've just had to raise the age to 67. They - like the Italians - don't like paying their taxes. http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/02/greeces_g... We should bail them out, but they should also retire at 67, the (existing) final salary pensions should be cut back and they should start paying their taxes.

I have to agree with this. It is inhumane and immoral not to bail them out if we can. Sure they have a huge responsibility for their situation however we all do. Much of what caused the crisis globally is being allowed to continue unchecked. We are sleep walking into another crisis yet we are all happy to point the finger at Greece's transgressions as if they are somehow worse than our own.

I don't agree with much of the fiscal and financial structures, strategies and ethos of the world at the moment however this is the path we are on and pivoting out of it will cause huge disruption and suffering. Austerity and measures forced by her creditors have so far failed Greece. It doesn't look bright in the future so they are correct to question the strategy however if they don't get their own house in order it will all be in vain. I think they realise this.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#79
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Varoufakis apparently told BBC that the banks might stay closed tomorrow and that capital controls could be imposed. http://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/615112479828348928 edit: scratch that. http://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/615127339102531584

Not imposing capital restrictions is suicide, i don't know if Yanis varoufakis is an economical genius a madman or simply amateurish.

Well, announcing them before imposing them is even worse (everybody panics, chaos ensues).

The ECB let them keep their current lifeline for a few more days, but it looks like it's still not sure yet whether the banks will open. (which means they probably wont - see above).

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-28/running-ou...

edit: updated with the fact that the current emergency aid from the ECB might not be enough to keep the banks open.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#80
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are forgetting that Greece made a lot of tough decisions for its people when asked by its creditors to "reform" yet it is just not sustainable, it's like asking the greeks to commit suicide. No, I am not forgetting this. The Greek people are certainly suffering from the reforms. But this suffering would have happened anyway, with or without the Euro. Greece has made such a mess of its finances, in a number of w…

> It is this free trade that Germany is profiting from, not the Euro currency. Once again a blatant falsehood. When economically strong and weaker countries share a currency the stronger countries benefit, because it pushes the value of their currency down. This means they can export effectively, especially to the countries who suddenly have a stronger currency with more purchasing power than they otherwise would hav…

It's no surprise that Germany only briefly went into a technical recession. I definitely didn't notice any extra financial hardship or reduction in spending here in Berlin. In fact it seems everyone is going crazy buying new sports cars.
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