Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers • Hacker News Board

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#71

Post by zyx321 » Wed, May 20, 2015, 12:55 PM UTC

alwaysinshade wrote: post #26

A recent article on HN made me realise that the U.S. might be on the right track for fixing this. The article was called Game Theory's Cure For Corruption Makes Us All Cops [0]. The solution is in your pocket. Imagine a city where police commit blatant traffic violations and never ticket one another. The authorities could decrease power inequalities by developing an online system in which all citizens are able to ano…

>It is, after all, essentially the same system used by many online communities.

Of course what actually happens if you report a moderator (or even just a friend of a moderator) is that the report will get thrown out on a technicality, and then you'll get banned over a minor infraction you may or may not have committed half a year ago.

PS: Big shout-out to all my buddies who are Not Here To Build An Encyclopedia.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#72

Post by Bostonian » Wed, May 20, 2015, 12:58 PM UTC

ChrisArgyle wrote: post #69

Bostonian wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black men also commit violent crimes at much higher rates than the rest of the population. Most people are in jail for a good reason. I suggest reading a recent essay "The Smart Way to Keep People Out of Prison" by Megan McArdle.

It seems as if you're saying violent crime is a function of race (crazy talk) instead of class status (arguable). Is it possible that, due to race-income inequalities in America, that black males are also more likely to have low/no income at the same "much higher rate"?

Empirically, crime rates do depend on race, not just class. It's not crazy to recognize reality.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#73

Post by DanBC » Wed, May 20, 2015, 12:59 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #60

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

Legalize which drugs? Only marijuana, or also crack, heroin, or LSD? If a certain drug causes brain damage and makes its users invalids, who will support them? I think a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done for each drug.

Currently the US spends billions on law enforcement and criminal justice.

Why not spend some of that money on drug treatment and long term care for the few people who'll suffer permanent harm as a result of drug use?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#74

Post by atwebb » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:01 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #68

CPLX wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other things that make people brain-dead and create invalids include snowboarding and being a pedestrian. Ending the drug war is actually in fact as simple as it sounds.

If only. The War on Drugs is a jobs program. What will all those newly out of work people do? What will all of those local police departments do without the 'easy' money from the government? (I realize that some of them don't need the extra funding and just use it to buy 'toys,' but I'm sure there are other to count on it in their budget) I'm not saying that it shouldn't end. I'm saying that it is not "as simple as i…

>What will all those newly out of work people do?

Making drugs? Selling drugs? Work in treatment? Work in the new recreational environments setup to take drugs? Increase enforcement of public intox/driving issues? Police elsewhere and other issues?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#75

Post by monochromatic » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:01 PM UTC

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #58

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

The drug war is a direct consequence of the Warren Court reforms of the 1960s. Equal Protection and Disparate Impact made illegal many local laws and policing methods that had worked to maintain order. Prosecutors needed new tools to get criminals behind bars, hence the war on drugs.

I don't think I've heard this theory before. Can you flesh it out a little bit please?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#76

Post by Xylakant » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:02 PM UTC

theorique wrote: post #65

vog wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The percentage of criminals in the United States" Not sure how this is really an additional fact. If you defined criminals in the sense of "criminals as defined in the US", you have almost by definition a direct correlation to the number of prisoners. BTW, here in Germany we also have politicians who think that Europe's criminals concentrate in Germany. Probably every country has some people believing that all cri…

In Europe, as well, there's a significant and rising problem of crime associated with migrants from the Middle East and Africa, right?

If controlled for factors such as social status, income, education statistics indicate that migrants are neither more nor less criminal than germans - a fact that I personally do not find surprising. Certainly there's now more crimes in absolute numbers since there are more migrants, but well - that's not surprising either. We also do have sufficient "european" crime to around, the mafia, east european gangs breaking into flats etc, and on top we have sufficient amounts of good old german crime - we're good at tax evasion, cheating on libor rates etc. All in all I'm not afraid that migrants will push german criminals out of their jobs.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#77

Post by CPLX » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:02 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #68

CPLX wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other things that make people brain-dead and create invalids include snowboarding and being a pedestrian. Ending the drug war is actually in fact as simple as it sounds.

If only. The War on Drugs is a jobs program. What will all those newly out of work people do? What will all of those local police departments do without the 'easy' money from the government? (I realize that some of them don't need the extra funding and just use it to buy 'toys,' but I'm sure there are other to count on it in their budget) I'm not saying that it shouldn't end. I'm saying that it is not "as simple as i…

I think it's important in policy discussions to distinguish "simple" and "easy" as concepts. Needless to say, it would not be easy to end and unravel the drug war. As a concept and goal, however, it is a simple decision.

> What will all of those local police departments do without the 'easy' money from the government?

Perhaps they could attempt to solve and prevent crimes involving violence and fraudulent behavior, which theoretically is the reason they exist in the first place.

And the idea that the war on drugs is a revenue-positive endeavor is so preposterous I am not sure how to even address it.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#78

Post by asanagi » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:03 PM UTC

btown wrote: post #70

alwaysinshade wrote: post #26

A recent article on HN made me realise that the U.S. might be on the right track for fixing this. The article was called Game Theory's Cure For Corruption Makes Us All Cops [0]. The solution is in your pocket. Imagine a city where police commit blatant traffic violations and never ticket one another. The authorities could decrease power inequalities by developing an online system in which all citizens are able to ano…

The article mentions but does not address the point of altruism. Nobody wants to be a stool pigeon singing to the police on someone they know, even if it's anonymous. The result is that the set of enforced laws is a strict subset of the set of laws that the majority of people would find reasonable. That's why we create police forces in the first place- to be our better selves. The war on black America needs to end, b…

But if the lawmakers are representatives of the people, why are there laws the people find unreasonable?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#79

Post by thawkins » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:04 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #60

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

Legalize which drugs? Only marijuana, or also crack, heroin, or LSD? If a certain drug causes brain damage and makes its users invalids, who will support them? I think a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done for each drug.

If all drugs where legal then they would be made by commercial organisations, instead of illeagal non-accountable crime organisations. Some people will die, and then those commercial organisations will get thier asses handed to them in a law suit, the industry will find ways to make it safer and accountable for thier own proTection. Instead of the current situation, where very large numbers of people die, and the suppliers murder even more directly with virtual impunity.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#80

Post by DanBC » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:04 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #72

ChrisArgyle wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems as if you're saying violent crime is a function of race (crazy talk) instead of class status (arguable). Is it possible that, due to race-income inequalities in America, that black males are also more likely to have low/no income at the same "much higher rate"?

Empirically, crime rates do depend on race, not just class. It's not crazy to recognize reality.

detected crime rates depend on race. That's not surprising when institutional racism creates a system focused on criminalising black people.