Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance • Hacker News Board

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#71

Post by deciplex » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:24 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #37

marrs wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreement is a perfectly valid reason for downvoting someone. No. It isn't. How would you feel if people shut you out of a discussion because they disagreed with you? If someone says something you disagree with, debate them. If they say something factually incorrect, correct them. They may even thank you for it. And guess what, they may end up changing your mind, or correcting a mistake on your part. Actively seek…

I'm shutting people out of discussing with me like all the time. I close the phone on unwanted calls, I mark unsolicited emails as spam, I tell salesmen showing up on my door to fuck off and whenever deeply flawed opinions are spoken by my friends or family (on matters important to me, like racism, privacy, free speech), I get up and leave. It's how I keep sane. And as somebody that was born in Eastern Europe in a (n…

Totally agree as long as you're making a good faith effort to distinguish noise (which I agree blumkvist's posts basically are, especially after the first one), from unfamiliar patterns of thought.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#72

Post by UweSchmidt » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:29 PM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #42

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

Edward Snowden seems like a good guy, but what he did was wrong. Betrayal and theft should not be condoned under any circumstances. He made the wrong choices and should be held accountable for them in a court of law. If someone I trusted unilaterally decided that I was breaking the law and then used that as a justification to steal documents from me and give them to journalists, I would be very upset. That's just wro…

Saying "no matter what this is about, not following any rule/breaking trust" is automatically "unethical, illegal and immoral" is wrong. If that was true, the concepts of ethics and morals wouldn't exist much in the first place. In some situations breaking a law or disobeying an order is a must, i.e. when ordered to commit a war crime. So, why not have a look at the specifics of the situation at hand instead of dismissing it outright?

What are you trusted with? Safety inspections? Overseeing any compliance issues? I could see many areas and many scenarios where I would hold you accountable to not just do as you are ordered, but speak out against wrongdoings.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#73

Post by deciplex » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:30 PM UTC

dimino wrote: post #32

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

Honestly, the fact that it's only 64% raises my opinion of Americans slightly. The barrage of propaganda you have to put up with there is truly remarkable, and especially considering the rivers of bullshit that streamed out of every single major media outlet in the wake of this, the fact the over one in three Americans still thinks he's an alright guy, with one in ten considering him a hero, speaks volumes for their resistance to it. Nice work, America.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#74

Post by jules » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:31 PM UTC

blumkvist wrote: post #19

jules wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should he have done instead?

I can't say what he should have done. I can say what I would do if I made the choice to whistleblow. I would stay and face the trial. Make a very big fuss about it. After all, I've decided to stand up for something. Something big. If I'm going to make that sacrifice, I will go all the way. I wouldn't risk casting shadows on my selfless act by going to an overly ambitious political rival of the US. Who also happens to…

Snowden has made a lot of powerful people very uncomfortable, so a fair trial and access to the media is unlikely.

> It's like exposing corruption in the police department and then only hanging out at the mafia's restaurant. How am I supposed at look at that guy now?

The whole point of staying in Russia is that he can't leave because the US made sure his travel documents were revoked, and Russia is unlikely to extradite him under political pressure from the US. If it was Snowdens goal to pass on information to Russia, he wouldn't have made such a big fuss about releasing that info to the media. So it's actually more like exposing corruption in the police department, and then seeking refuge from the wrath of those corrupt police, and the only safe place you can find is the maffia's restaurant.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#75

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:35 PM UTC

atom-morgan wrote: post #67

dimino wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. That logic should scare the living hell out of people.

[deleted]

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#76

Post by rorykoehler » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:38 PM UTC

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

I find it amazing that the messenger gets shot when unveiling a massive criminal conspiracy that goes to the highest levels of government. If there was no crime in the first place there would be nothing to unveil and Snowden would still mostly likely be sitting at his desk in an NSA data center somewhere doing his job. Do you also want any witnesses to petty crime and more serious personal crimes such as murder locked up because they happened to witness someone else committing a crime?

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#77

Post by shit_parade2 » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:43 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #76

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

I find it amazing that the messenger gets shot when unveiling a massive criminal conspiracy that goes to the highest levels of government. If there was no crime in the first place there would be nothing to unveil and Snowden would still mostly likely be sitting at his desk in an NSA data center somewhere doing his job. Do you also want any witnesses to petty crime and more serious personal crimes such as murder locke…

I'm sure all the statists in this thread would be singing snowdens praises if he had only been a senator or maybe worked at a large international bank, cause those people break all sorts of laws all the time and these apologists don't seem to mind.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#78

Post by dimino » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:44 PM UTC

atom-morgan wrote: post #67

dimino wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

> These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. That logic should scare the living hell out of people.

Why? I myself am not over the moon about what Snowden did, though I recognize the necessity for it, and don't hold any personal grudge against him for it.

I just don't trust people to accurately asses whether or not something is "leak worthy", and I don't want to create a safe path for folks just because they thought what they were leaking was important for the world to know. It ruins the concept of holding government secrets, something I think benefits the US and other governments more than it harms them and the people they serve.

I think it should be a huge risk, and carry dire consequences, in general, when you release classified information. In this specific case, perhaps the fact that the US courts, congress, and the US people have all collectively been appalled at what the US government has been doing should exonerate Snowden, but only in this specific case. I would not like any kind of precedent to be set, for the aforementioned reason.

I hope Obama pardons him in his last days in office, or offers him a deal where he is allowed back in the US without serving any jail time.

What's wrong with my logic?

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#79

Post by jules » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:44 PM UTC

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #43

jgrahamc wrote: post #6

I sometimes think that HN is pro-Snowden. Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain?

> Are there folks here who see him as less a hero more a villain? I see him as neither hero nor villain. He has undertaken certain actions, such as leaking the NSA's illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans, that took a lot of courage and may result in positive changes if we really make use of what was leaked. For this he should be commended. He sacrificed his life in the US for this. Let's do what we can to mak…

Why is leaking a massive spying program on innocent Americans courageous, but leaking a massive spying program on innocent non-Americans misguided? Morality doesn't stop at the border, people on the other side of it are humans too.

Re: Snowden Sees Some Victories, from a Distance

#80

Post by diyorgasms » Wed, May 20, 2015, 1:44 PM UTC

toxican wrote: post #51

dimino wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost everyone I talk to in person thinks Snowden is a criminal. These people believe the US government was caught doing something it shouldn't have, but Snowden himself is a bad guy to these folks because he's seen as betraying his country. I think HN is much more pro-Snowden than the general population is, but I think the general population doesn't deny the value of exposing what the US government did. I live in D…

I guess this is kind of where I'm at with him. Although I don't really think he's a "bad guy". What he did was treason and it was "wrong", but I think in this case the ends justify the means. What he exposed was far worse than how he did it.

You do realize that the crime of treason is codified in the United States Constitution, and that what Snowden did in no way meets the criteria enumerated there. Careful throwing the word "treason" around like that, it can make you appear ignorant.