Live data from Hacker News

Join the Engineering Leisure Class

medium.com

71–80 of 197 posts

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#71
Few things:

- Depending on what kind of problems you enjoy solving, you're going to be miserable even if you are able to do this.

I love working on my own at times (exploring new concepts and ideas, new languages, or even "toy projects" with no real-world applications), but in the end, I find working on bigger problems, with a team of great people to be a lot more fulfilling.

- Constraints are useful in that they force you to rely on something other than pure will power. This can go both ways: _if_ you are going without a regular source of income (as opposed to retiring after winning the [startup] lottery), you'll need to sacrifice time for money. On the other hand, a full time job provides a good deal of constraints as well (both for what you do _at_ work and what you do outside of work hours).

Gene Wolfe[2] kept a full time job and wrote an hour each day. That had two constraints: he didn't need to rush or alter his work in order to sell (his books are fulfilling and rewarding but not a "easy, fun read" that brings in great royalties right away) and since he only had an hour each day to write, he knew he had to make the best of it (one thing said about him, is that he doesn't waste words: he's got a whole CNC machine milling Chekhov's guns...)

- Burnout is an entirely different matter, one shouldn't generalize from "this helps deal with being burnt out" to "drop everything, do this, and you'll never be burnt out."

- Finally, it isn't a feasible option for most:

First, one can't insure against economic catastrophe, savings and a low burn rate are great, but ultimately the _only_ financial insurance one is there ability to earn an income[1].

That ability is predicated on ability to contribute and the amount of people willing to pay for your contributions. In other words, if you're a great developer and you live (or can relocate to) a fluid job market, your risks are lower than those of an average developer (note: assuming a normal probability distribution, 50% of developers are _below_ average, and most fall within a standard deviation of average...) in a less fluid job market.

Areas with fluid job markets tend to have higher costs of living. Unless one is extremely talented (and in many cases, even if that is the case), one doesn't become a great cut above average overnight. One generally starts off with a job in an area with a fluid job market (hence greater expenses!) and over the time develops ties to the area (friends, family, pets, etc...) and can't easily drop everything to move to a cheaper area for their "leisure time" and then -- if something goes wrong -- easily return to the area to take advantage of the fluid job market.

All else being equal, a developer of equal skill, in an equally fluid area, that did not "take a year off" will hired over one that has, _unless_ they've done something extra-ordinary with this time. Best prediction of being able to do something extra-ordinary is... having done something extra-ordinary. So at the least, do something extra-ordinary on a smaller scale first before going full-time on it. Zuck and billg didn't drop out of Harvard with a blank emacs window (in billg's case, perhaps it was a TECO window, not sure if TECO EMACS was around in his days...).

- In a capitalist system, money does one thing well: if you have more money than you have a use for, you can give it to someone who has the time to make the most of it. Marginally, a dollar spent donating to someone _very good_ working on a project I care about (a programming language, infrastructure for open source projects, a social cause, etc...) goes _much further_ than a dollar "spent" by foregoing income to work on most of those projects full-time. As for the exceptions to this, I can usually incorporate them into full-time jobs.

Conversely, I'd suggest this heuristic:

1) Can you afford it without putting people who rely on you into jeopardy? (Are you going to demand that your wife end a rewarding career to move to a cheaper area with you? Are you going to make your kids move to an area in inferior schools? If either is true, stop right there and then...)

2) Marginal value of dollar spent metric above: if someone can do a better job with the same resources, help provide the resources for them. Concrete example: since my username doesn't begin with a 'p' and end with a 'g', money I contributed to Clojure project (when it was in dire financial straits) probably had more impact in creating a Lisp-1 with a good macro-system than if I were to quit my job and work full-time on a Lisp-1 (likewise, while pg can afford to literally work on anything he wants to, he chooses to invest[3] in teams capable of building things he careers deeply about, but isn't quite good at building himself).

Otherwise, try to make the "leisure" activity part of your day-to-day job as well.

3) Otherwise, if you can do something awesome with your time -- you probably don't need someone named after a function that may never return in a memory-unsafe language's standard library to tell you that :-)

[1] Investments under-writing "early retirement" may collapse. "Social insurance" such as universal healthcare, pensions, unemployment benefits, etc... can be voted or sued out of existence.

[2] If you're an SFF fan, pick up Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun tetralogy sometime, but be warned that once you start, your dreams of doing anything else with your time will be over.

[3] Investing is not the same thing as donations, but I don't believe any angel/seed investor invests purely for the money.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#72
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or in the places where a mostly capitalistic system provides it. I did something similar last year in India and the medical system was not a problem. (I did not by any stretch of the imagination get lucky and manage to avoid injury.)

True, the capitalistic health care system in India is good for software engineers, who probably fall into the class who can afford it, but it's far from available to every citizen. Also, the high-tech healthcare that we are accustomed to in the US is generally only available to the upper classes in India or people who pay with foreign (>local) purchasing power. Some of the hospitals that provide high-tech care do som…

True, lots things in India are not available to everyone. E.g., running water, enough food, etc. This means India is poor.

To make the best comparison I can think of, spine surgery cost me 0.5-3 months of a local software engineer's salary. In the US the billing error might be 0.3-2 years of an American engineer's salary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/us/drive-by-doctoring-surp...

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#73

How many kids do you have, Chris? :-)

One kid is on the way -- and yes, I have no idea how children are going to affect our lives! I've considered going in two totally different directions: I might go for a high-paying full-time job so that my wife and I can pay for a nanny and all those other modern affluent child-raising tools, or I might try to go full-bore stay-at-home Dad changing diapers and raising the kids to grow their own food in the backyard a…

If you are considering the in-between with kids and work, remember that managing the in-between has it's own logistical overhead (== costs).

For example, if you have a nanny part-time, you will have to figure out nanny taxes - assuming you're doing it the legal way - or pay an outside party to manage the nanny's payroll.

That overhead may be easier to justify when the nanny is allowing you to work a full time high paying job, less so if the nanny is only coming a couple days a week. In this case, you might consider a part-time day care center instead.

And unless you have a lot of energy or hired/family help, you will be so tired in the first few years of your child's life that you likely won't have the energy to do anything beyond growing a few token tomatoes and potatoes, certainly nothing at the scale needed to make a dent in a family's food costs.

For clothing, tap your friends-with-kids network to get into the hand-me-down stream. Babies and toddlers grow out of clothes faster than they can wear them out, and new clothes are $$$.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#74
post #8

I did this. I advise against this. I had money saved up, and for visa reasons had to spend a year outside the USA. Seemed like a perfect time to indulge in some risky ideas, especially those which were a little idealistic. It ended up being incredibly depressing and I got very little done. It's hard enough to build a product when you're in a startup or a smart team. In my opinion it's nearly impossible if you're goin…

I'm doing this right now. I sometimes feel that I'm not being very productive and should just get a job. Then I look over my daily journal and discover I'm getting quite a lot done.

This week I started using Trello with a basic kanban arrangement. When I'm ready for a break from one task, instead of goofing off I just switch to a different one. Eg., if I need a break from coding, I'll read my current book for a while; at the moment I'm going through a stack of books on UI design.

I've built one proof of concept, made a lot of progress on another, did each in a language I didn't know before, and I'm working now on another idea using Meteor, which I also didn't know before. Several projects are from ideas I had after starting all this, and I think they could become marketable products.

I guess you could say I'm not exactly doing the "leisure" thing since I'm working towards real products, but it's not a definite startup yet either. But now I'm focusing more on the easier projects so I can get something into production. It's been nice working in an ivory tower for a little while, but I'm getting an itch to show people results.

And I'm having a great time doing it all. I'm pretty introverted so I don't need that much social interaction, but I have a girlfriend I see every day, do lunch with my old coworkers every week or two, and make sure I get good food and exercise. Several times a week I wake up early enough and watch the sunrise.

All of which is just to say: YMMV.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#75
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, the capitalistic health care system in India is good for software engineers, who probably fall into the class who can afford it, but it's far from available to every citizen. Also, the high-tech healthcare that we are accustomed to in the US is generally only available to the upper classes in India or people who pay with foreign (>local) purchasing power. Some of the hospitals that provide high-tech care do som…

True, lots things in India are not available to everyone. E.g., running water, enough food, etc. This means India is poor. To make the best comparison I can think of, spine surgery cost me 0.5-3 months of a local software engineer's salary. In the US the billing error might be 0.3-2 years of an American engineer's salary. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/us/drive-by-doctoring-surp...

Yes, a similarly high cost difference is what drove my acquaintance to have orthopedic surgery in India, which was far cheaper, even when including the cost of several weeks of recovery at a resort in Kerala. The US has uniquely high costs for specialty medical procedures and devices.

A friend who runs a biotech startup told me that most European companies developing medical devices and pharmaceuticals justify the high R&D costs and regulatory risks by targeting the high profit potential of the US market. In most non-US developed countries, they aren't allowed sell their product for as high a cost by law.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#76
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the MMM manifesto would never work for me - it basically says that I would have to be setting aside over 90% of my income (given my salary range), which wouldn't allow for things like a newer car, owning a house over 300 sq. ft., or traveling to Arizona to visit relatives. Personally, I refuse to give up my life today for the possibility of a life tomorrow. There's too few guarantees that there will be a tomorr…

That's not really what MMM espouses, from what I've been able to tell (I've actually spent the better part of the last month devouring his blog and the forums). MMM's point is that, if you live well within your means and can save 50% of your income (however you choose to define that, but most people do after-tax), you can "retire" after a short number of years. "Retirement" is very much however you want to define it,…

What is the point of retiring early, if you're stuck having to pinch-pennies, cut-coupons, all to living within a very modest budget?

I have to do something with my time, so I might as well get paid handsomely for it.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#77
post #52
post #16

This is actually exactly what I want to do, although I just started working so for obvious reasons it isn't a reality yet. How long does it take to save up enough money that you wouldn't need to work though? Also, it seems like eventually you'd run out of money unless you can just retire early, in which case, you have the issue of explaining why you've been out of work for so long and proving you still are up to the…

> I want to continue studying piano, but pianos cost money, getting a house costs money, and lessons cost money. Given the difficulty people experience in getting rid of pianos, and the constant flood of pianos, a piano might not cost you much money; you might even be able to get paid to take a nice piano off someone's hands: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/arts/music/for-more-pianos...

Hey, thanks for taking the time to try and help me out! It does seem like it's a buyer's market right now for pianos, but a decent piano still costs a considerable amount of money. Of course, I think this is partly because I'm very serious about it so I don't want just anything.

If you get a poorly maintained piano, it could cost several thousand dollars to restore it. Just replacing the actions of a grand costs something like $4k-$5k from what a technician told me.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#78

> Luckily, there’s a corner of the Internet dedicated to breaking the link between “comfort” and money. The problem with this is that it moves in the wrong direction. You spent all this time learning how to earn more money for your time. Then what do you do after you earn a bunch of money? Figure out how to trade your time for money again, just in different arenas? Why, so you can avoid having to spend more time doin…

> Cloth diapering and seems the be the poster-child for these sorts of things.

Cloth diapering (as currently practiced, with fancy diapers and washing machines) is not cost effective at all; it's (arguably) environmentally responsible, extra butt padding, and cute.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#79
post #22

"An engineer earning an amazingly-not-uncommon salary of $100k/year ends up living in an expensive place like San Francisco, starts spending money on some admittedly lovely luxuries, and quickly becomes convinced that her spending is just about right for a comfortable life." Certainly, one way to manage all this is to not live in a place like San Francisco. But I think it is important to make sure people know that lo…

> Full time childcare is about $24,000 a year.

You don't pay this on "a median developer's salary". Most children have two parents.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#80
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really what MMM espouses, from what I've been able to tell (I've actually spent the better part of the last month devouring his blog and the forums). MMM's point is that, if you live well within your means and can save 50% of your income (however you choose to define that, but most people do after-tax), you can "retire" after a short number of years. "Retirement" is very much however you want to define it,…

What is the point of retiring early, if you're stuck having to pinch-pennies, cut-coupons, all to living within a very modest budget? I have to do something with my time, so I might as well get paid handsomely for it.

> I have to do something with my time, so I might as well get paid handsomely for it.

There's actually an interesting component to that. Likely since you first started working you've never actually been in a situation where you don't need to sell your time in order to pay your expenses. I sure haven't.

But I've read a lot of stories from people who are currently in that situation, and the feeling of having to do something with your time and be constantly productive apparently fades over time. Not because they're bored, but because they're fulfilled by different things. Like, suddenly the household chores are fulfilling instead of burdensome.

Also, from what I've read very few people on the FIRE path waste time clipping coupons or pinching pennies. The whole point is to optimize lifetime overall happiness by strategically optimizing your spending and investments, monetarily and otherwise.

Post reply on HN