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U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#71

Post by hackuser »

wehadfun wrote: post #36
toyg wrote: post #29

Now it would be the right time to ask for a presidential pardon for Edward Snowden. Now that candidates are gearing up their campaign platforms, it would be a great vote winner both on the left and on the (libertarian) right. If you live in a "defining primary" state, please go and ask the candidates as soon as they show up.

We may be glad with what he did but do we want to encourage this type of thing? I think quietly "being nice" to him is fine but a public pardon, a welcome hope party, adoring media coverage may inspire some idiot to be the next Snowden and we probably do not want that.

> We may be glad with what he did but do we want to encourage this type of thing?

I think this raises an issue we can't easily dismiss, how to handle whistle-blowers. On one hand they are essential to democracy, so we don't want to jail all of them; on the other they can cause great harm, so we don't want to enable all of them. How do we enable good whistle-blowers and stop the bad ones?

Let's hear serious proposals. Would a law that puts the consequences on the leaker's shoulders be sufficient? Prosecuting someone after-the-fact when, due to the leaker's misjudgment, their leak lost a war and killed hundreds of thousands wouldn't be enough. Require them to exhaust internal institutional solutions? Again, that wouldn't protect us from a leaker with bad judgment; the worse their judgment, the more likley the institution would rightly reject all the leaker's claims, leading to a leak. Rely on executive clemency?

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#72

Post by jdp23 »

kylelibra wrote: post #12

Here's the actual decision: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf Concurrence by Judge Sack: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/clap... Here's what struck me as the most interesting comment from Sack - "Considering the issue of advocacy in the context of deliberations involving alleged state secrets, and, more broadly, the ʺleakʺ by Edward Snowden that led to this litigation, calls…

Here's a summary of the legal issues by Marty Lederman: http://justsecurity.org/22799/breaking-circuit-rules-section...

And Marcy Wheeler's got some excerpts as well: https://www.emptywheel.net/2015/05/07/2nd-circuit-rules-phon...

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#73

Post by snowwrestler »

hackuser wrote: post #65
diafygi wrote: post #13

The actual judgment: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf From the ruling: > Because we find that the program exceeds the scope of what Congress has authorized, we vacate the decision below dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants’ constitutional arguments. It appears that the government is starting to lose the ability to always dismiss constitutional rights abused on "state secrets" ground…

> It appears that the government is starting to lose the ability to always dismiss constitutional rights ... The text you quoted said dismissing the complaint without reaching appellants' constitutional arguments . > organizations like the ACLU and the EFF need funding Serious question: Do the ACLU and EFF profile their donors by collecting information from and reporting it to third parties? It's my understanding tha…

Ghostery reports Omniture(Adobe Analytics) on the ACLU homepage, and additionally Adobe Test and Target on their donate page. On EFF, Ghostery only reports Piwik Analytics on their home and donate pages. For comparison, the NYTimes homepage shows 35 trackers.

Personally, I don't have a problem with this. I am concerned about overreach in government policy, not nonprofits trying to learn a bit more about their supporters.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#74

Post by patzerhacker »

kordless wrote: post #41
a3n wrote: post #3

Pre-Snowden, I wonder if the ruling would have been different. Back then the judges would only know what was presented to them. The government would have obviously presented in a way that was most favorable to them, and their opposition would not have access to crucial evidence. Now that the cat shit is out of the bag, judges and everyone else have more background to evaluate what's in front of them. The government w…

> Thank you Snowden. Fuck you NSA. I'm going to turn that into a sticker and stick it on my laptop.

Bring back the "This Machine Kills Fascists" sticker for laptops as well!

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#75

Post by patzerhacker »

kylelibra wrote: post #12

Here's the actual decision: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/NSA_ca2_20150507.pdf Concurrence by Judge Sack: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/clap... Here's what struck me as the most interesting comment from Sack - "Considering the issue of advocacy in the context of deliberations involving alleged state secrets, and, more broadly, the ʺleakʺ by Edward Snowden that led to this litigation, calls…

It's times like this that really make me miss Groklaw.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#76

Post by CPLX »

jstalin wrote: post #44

Read the concurring opinion from Judge Sack. He calls into question the entire FISA court's non-adversarial process, comparing it to the proceedings against the New York Times during the Pentagon Papers era: His concurring opinion starts at page 98. http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/cb3868fe-b18...

Agreed, his part is fascinating, and of a completely different tone than the rest and your usual appellate court decisions with their narrowly drawn exactitudes. His reads more like an essay than a legal opinion in places.

And yes, he is essentially saying that the FISA court is fundamentally flawed as it does not allow for all relevant parties to have their arguments heard.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#77

Post by patzerhacker »

phaus wrote: post #68
toyg wrote: post #29

Now it would be the right time to ask for a presidential pardon for Edward Snowden. Now that candidates are gearing up their campaign platforms, it would be a great vote winner both on the left and on the (libertarian) right. If you live in a "defining primary" state, please go and ask the candidates as soon as they show up.

Why would it be a good time to ask for a pardon? The only thing the current administration loves more than jailing whistleblowers is drone-striking civilians. Why ask when the answer is obviously going to be 'Fuck No?'

Or even when the answer is going to be yes? Snowden shouldn't need a pardon for what he's done. Any federal prosecutor that would even consider laying charges should be removed from office immediately.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#78

Post by craigching » 

  Thus, the government takes the position that the metadata
  collected – a vast amount of which does not contain
  directly “relevant” information, as the government
  concedes – are nevertheless “relevant” because they may
  allow the NSA, at some unknown time in the future,
  utilizing its ability to sift through the trove of
  irrelevant data it has collected up to that point,
  to identify information that is relevant.
Just dripping with hubris! I am just gobsmacked at the audacity of such a claim.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#79

Post by minot »

hackuser wrote: post #71
wehadfun wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We may be glad with what he did but do we want to encourage this type of thing? I think quietly "being nice" to him is fine but a public pardon, a welcome hope party, adoring media coverage may inspire some idiot to be the next Snowden and we probably do not want that.

> We may be glad with what he did but do we want to encourage this type of thing? I think this raises an issue we can't easily dismiss, how to handle whistle-blowers. On one hand they are essential to democracy, so we don't want to jail all of them; on the other they can cause great harm, so we don't want to enable all of them. How do we enable good whistle-blowers and stop the bad ones? Let's hear serious proposals.…

If the government thinks individuals have nothing to hide then as an individual I think the government has nothing to hide.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#80

Post by jdp23 »

zmanian wrote: post #30

Key thoughts. It is always important to remember that the Section 215 progam is not a significant authority under which the government conducts surveillance on US citizens. The metadata program is a little used program and the data is not co-mingled with the larger XKeyScore dataset. As a result, the IC does not fight as hard to protection Section 215 authority as it does more significant surveillance authorities. Be…

Very much agree about the USA Freedom Act being an opportunity for the intelligence community to get more power. Marcy Wheeler had several examples a few days ago: https://www.emptywheel.net/2015/05/06/the-goodies-usa-f-redu...

The Surveillance State Repeal Act would be an even stronger reform than straight expiration. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/24/surveillance-state-...

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