What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#71

Post by alexashka » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

I think the article misses the point: the problem with poor people is they don't have money.

I'd know, I grew up poor. That's the problem, and ONLY problem.

'We can do more to be supportive' - JUST GIVE THEM MONEY. Oh they don't have to pay tuition, that's great. Do they have to pay rent and eat? Do they need to buy textbooks and clothes?

Give them money, end of story.

All this talk of self-esteem issues - please. Every 12-30 year old has self-esteem issues or ego-maniacal issues, time fixes all that. Just let them study and learn to fit in instead of washing dishes.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#72

Post by dhd415 » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

dsp1234 wrote: post #51

spiritplumber wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boot…

Obviously a side note, but I did a test on a topic similar to this. My SO convinced me to try out a custom shoe place (highly reviewed, and recommended) on the theory that if I was only going to buy one pair of shoes, that I should at least have a quality pair to wear around. The results from that (sole) experiment were that the shoes lasted longer but not so much so that they beat out multiple pairs of cheaper shoes…

It sounds like you're comparing some kind of dress shoe to sneakers. For it to be an accurate comparison, you'd need to compare the custom dress shoes to cheap dress shoes. Also, it's pretty hard to beat the cost of sneakers for footwear if you have no need for dressier shoes.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#73

Post by _greim_ » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 9:54 PM UTC

First first world problems.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#74

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

impendia wrote: post #12

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #11

This resonated with me - a poor farm kid from Iowa going to Stanford. I had my student loan plus zilch. Other students were off to Hawaii for vacation. Me, I had to bum a place to stay over breaks when the dorms were closed. I never asked questions; never used any tutors or talked to a professor; never studied in groups. It was a lonely life.

> I never asked questions; never used any tutors or talked to a professor; I am a professor (albeit at a non-elite university). How do I persuade students such as yourself to ask questions, to use tutors, to show up to office hours, and to talk to me?

If a student is struggling and does not use the available resources for catching up with the rest of the class, it may be for any of several reasons:

- Asking for help is a display of weakness, and that student has been conditioned to conceal his or her weaknesses.

- The student has feelings of inferiority that lead him or her to assume that they do not deserve additional assistance.

- The student has given his or her last pennies to the bursar and the bookseller, is literally living in a van and gleaning the trash to meet survival needs, and is avoiding peers and professors to conceal this lifestyle.

- The student has a job, and the work schedule interferes with your office hours. You don't pay them to show up, so you lose the conflict.

- The student is simply unaware that such resources are available in general, or available to him or her, specifically.

- The student has adopted compensation strategies to deal with an environment unsupportive of their goals. Being invisible and anonymous may be one of them. Wearing a "mask personality" in public may be another.

- The student is conditioned to believe that no one offers help without expecting something in return. In some cases, accepting help is actually dangerous. (Remember how I helped you out with your rent? Good. Hide this gun for me. You owe me.)

Just use your position of perceived authority, and order them to show up.

If you teach an intro-level class, draw lots, and assign every one of your students to visit you during your office hours in a specific, scheduled, 10-minute window prior to midterms. This is where you actually teach the student how to interact with professors outside the classroom. With each student, talk a little about your class, and a little about anything else. Make it a pass-fail item on the syllabus. Show up? Get some free course credit. Don't show? 0 points. (If you really kick ass at this, you can play "friend matchmaker" and try to coerce your students into befriending and helping each other.)

Remember, there are no classes in most public high schools on how to "do college". Those kids are learning it as they go.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#75

Post by no_wave » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

dsp1234 wrote: post #51

spiritplumber wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boot…

Obviously a side note, but I did a test on a topic similar to this. My SO convinced me to try out a custom shoe place (highly reviewed, and recommended) on the theory that if I was only going to buy one pair of shoes, that I should at least have a quality pair to wear around. The results from that (sole) experiment were that the shoes lasted longer but not so much so that they beat out multiple pairs of cheaper shoes…

That's a little extreme - a fairer comparison would be Allen Edmonds vs. a budget dress shoe.

If you want to beat sneakers in terms of price, switch to work boots like Red Wings or Chippewa.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#76

Post by honestcoyote » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

impendia wrote: post #12

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #11

This resonated with me - a poor farm kid from Iowa going to Stanford. I had my student loan plus zilch. Other students were off to Hawaii for vacation. Me, I had to bum a place to stay over breaks when the dorms were closed. I never asked questions; never used any tutors or talked to a professor; never studied in groups. It was a lonely life.

> I never asked questions; never used any tutors or talked to a professor; I am a professor (albeit at a non-elite university). How do I persuade students such as yourself to ask questions, to use tutors, to show up to office hours, and to talk to me?

One thing that helped me was the professor emphasizing email and the class forums on the crappy uni CMS. I know you'd probably prefer students showing up in person, but for people like me, email ensured I would stay in communication with the professor outside of class. I would feel like I was wasting the prof's time if I went to her office with a dumb question, but didn't feel the same pressure if I emailed the question.

I ended up having extended conversations with the majority of my professors this way, and ultimately built relationships which made me feel comfortable about dropping in during office hours.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#77

Post by p_eter_p » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 9:59 PM UTC

John Scalzi's essay "Being Poor" is a really good read along these same lines.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#78

Post by ubasu » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 10:02 PM UTC

stegosaurus wrote: post #9

I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. It's a sort of bandage over a huge chasm of differences. For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop cultu…

I would recommend reading these books by one Ruby Payne which explore such differences in detail:

A framework for understanding poverty: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229488/

Crossing the Tracks for Love: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/192922933X/

Hidden Rules of Class at Work: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229070/

In particular, she goes in to these very concerns about how on has to change their identity and mindset from their old world to be in the new world.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#79

Post by lxe » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 10:03 PM UTC

I came to the U.S. from Eastern Europe when I was 13. My father was an engineer, and the rather humble entry-level salary was just enough to support our family of 4. My parents chose to settle in a "middle-class" suburban area with a great school district, which immediately placed us at the relatively lowest "class" in the area.

Besides the obvious language barrier being a massive separator for some time, there were also plenty of instances where "class" came into play. We couldn't afford to purchase airfare, or to eat out for a while. I felt jealous, or angry at people who did not immediately understand that I won't receive cash from grandparents for christmas, or that I won't be able to get the latest toys and electronics.

Even though it was very hard at first, but I didn't crave community support or entitlement based on my class or language. I didn't want special treatment, because I knew that that would just alienate me even more. I wanted acceptance, just like everyone else who is "different", but instead of attempting to change people around me to tailor to my needs or feelings, I guided my own attitude and expectations to accept certain things as they are. I managed my own social anxiety and didn't expect anyone to tailor to it. I cultivated my own belonging naturally, without reliance on programs or groups that attempt to do it artificially. I even refused to take ESL class for a very long time, fearing that that would socially single me out.

I soon started to socialize and became friends with people of all "classes," and I never attempted to place myself in a group based on financial privilege -- I looked for more important qualities in my friends. Even when I got jealous or angry at someone's privilege, I understood that it is OK for them to be more fortunate, and that I shouldn't expect others to walk in my shoes. I assumed most people, even those that can never fully understand my situation, are good -- and expected nothing from them. After all, my goal was to achieve what they have, and I expected myself to someday enjoy the same privileges.

Re: What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school?

#80

Post by caseysoftware » Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 10:06 PM UTC

jheriko wrote: post #27

stegosaurus wrote: post #9

I attended an elite UK university having had a poor upbringing. This article reads painfully to me. I don't have the words to describe why, but I can try. The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. It's a sort of bandage over a huge chasm of differences. For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop cultu…

Its hard to take the article very seriously from the title, but it does make for a slightly cringeworthy read. As someone from a very poor background (actual poor - starving in africa poor, not US overprivileged 'I can eat for free out of bins' poor, but this is all relative...) I can sympathise somewhat too. I agree with the point made here in this comment- personally, I never felt like I had the kind of disadvantag…

> A very rich man once said to me that if you act like a rich person eventually you would find yourself to be rich... I think there is an element of truth in that.

People are criticizing this line but I think there's a lot of truth in it. Despite what most people believe, people who get and remain rich don't spend every dime they have. They live below their means, save, invest, and grow what they have.

Our family got on the Dave Ramsey plan years ago (2008/9?) and it radically changed our thinking and life in a matter of months. After a couple years, it radically changed our lives.