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Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

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Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#71

Post by stephendedalus »

baddox wrote: post #49

I almost completely agree with the author's policy recommendations and criticisms of US car culture, but I find many of his arguments and implications to be fairly troubling. > We’re already at the point where every car-on-bike “accident” (police always assume it’s an accident; drivers are allowed unlimited “oopsies”) Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposefu…

> Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposeful assault from the automobile driver? I find that very difficult to believe.

No, he's not. He's implying that instead of motorists being charged with reckless driving or other similar charges, they're most often not even charged. I once had a car make a left turn across 4 lanes of traffic and a turn lane and t-bone me while I was cycling. He couldn't be bothered to make his way safely to the turn lane, pause, then turn left. He just swung across the entire road and hit me. He didn't even get a ticket because he told the officer the sun was in his eyes. I left the scene of the accident in an ambulance and was unable to function normally for over a year. It's not equal.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#72

Post by kika »

terravion wrote: post #58
Nrsolis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to NYC. We have Citibike here and messengers and delivery people on bikes. And it's horrible. The bicyclists ROUTINELY violate nearly every sane traffic law on the books. They go the wrong way against traffic, refuse to stop for stop lights or pedestrians in crosswalks, ride on sidewalks, have few if any safety features like headlights or taillights, and on and on. If cyclists would simply follow the traffic law…

In New York cars routinely violate every law on parking, they break the speed limit on every block, change lanes without signaling, and block intersections. If cars would simply follow the laws that already exist there would be many fewer deadly accidents between cars and people who die when hit.

If your thought was to object to the statement you're replying to then probably it went wrong.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#73

Post by zhanwei »

cperciva wrote: post #26

At first I thought this was going to be a parody of "anti-rape-culture" campaigns (e.g., "teaching women to defend themselves from rapists is wrong, because we should be teaching men to not rape women"), but much to my surprise it seems that the author is serious. And so I really have to wonder about his grip on logic: The whole purpose of making cyclists more visible is to prevent drivers from hitting them! Driving…

The current safety technologies like lights and brakes are absolutely necessary but they only work up to a certain point. The rest are human factor. But to say that cyclist should stay safe by spraying paint on their body is getting a bit too far.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#74

Post by regularfry »

jinushaun wrote: post #29
makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

Is that cause or effect, though? The environment is hostile to cyclists, so do you only get those who will be as hostile as they need to be in return to survive?

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#75

Post by danielwarna »

jinushaun wrote: post #29
makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

It's funny how the exact same "Bicyclists don't respect any rules and are always at fault"-attitude exists here in Finland. Yet it turns out that drivers are at fault in 70% of all bike-car crashes.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#76

Post by Nrsolis »

terravion wrote: post #58
Nrsolis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to NYC. We have Citibike here and messengers and delivery people on bikes. And it's horrible. The bicyclists ROUTINELY violate nearly every sane traffic law on the books. They go the wrong way against traffic, refuse to stop for stop lights or pedestrians in crosswalks, ride on sidewalks, have few if any safety features like headlights or taillights, and on and on. If cyclists would simply follow the traffic law…

In New York cars routinely violate every law on parking, they break the speed limit on every block, change lanes without signaling, and block intersections. If cars would simply follow the laws that already exist there would be many fewer deadly accidents between cars and people who die when hit.

The traffic congestion in NYC keeps the speeds down, not to mention the potholes in the road.

But a cyclist running a red light is so commonplace in NYC that they think that it's not even a ticketable offense.

http://nypost.com/2014/09/24/most-cyclists-are-still-ignorin...

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#77

Post by baddox »

stephendedalus wrote: post #71
baddox wrote: post #49

I almost completely agree with the author's policy recommendations and criticisms of US car culture, but I find many of his arguments and implications to be fairly troubling. > We’re already at the point where every car-on-bike “accident” (police always assume it’s an accident; drivers are allowed unlimited “oopsies”) Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposefu…

> Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposeful assault from the automobile driver? I find that very difficult to believe. No, he's not. He's implying that instead of motorists being charged with reckless driving or other similar charges, they're most often not even charged. I once had a car make a left turn across 4 lanes of traffic and a turn lane and t-bone m…

I have no complaints about the claim that drivers should more often be charged with reckless driving, but that's very different than suggesting that a significant portion of these incidents are purposeful collisions initiated by the automobile driver.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#78

Post by angersock »

jinushaun wrote: post #29
makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

I commute to work every day on my bike, and I live in Houston, which is probably about as car-friendly a city as you can get.

Most of the cyclists I see are pretty well-behaved, stopping at lights and behaving nicely.

The drivers, though, have no idea what to do with this strange two-wheeled human-vehicle centaurish thing which randomly appears on the road with them.

They'll swerve out into oncoming lanes of traffic if I'm by the side of the road. They'll pull to a near crawl and form a column behind me. They'll speed up and buzz my bike going 40 mph. They'll honk at me as they come up behind me, pass me, and drive past. One nice lady tried to run me down in her SUV because I had the gall to pass on her right. And if there're two (two!) bikes sharing a lane? They'll completely lose their minds at the sight of such a miracle.

Let's use hand signals, and show which way we're going--haha, just kidding, no drivers in the city seem to understand the difference between "I'm turning left", "I'm turning right", "I'm about to brake", and "being on a bike is so awesome I'm just going to flail my left arm around".

Also, the roads here are just barely good enough for cars--on bikes, you'll merrily eat a pothole and go flying, or bend a rim, or whatever. The sidewalks are even worse, otherwise we'd be on those.

And then there are the pedestrians! If drivers are clueless, people that are ambling around or jogging are malevolently stupid. Call out your passing side ahead of time, and they stop and crane their head around trying to see if God himself was talking to them--instead of, you know, moving out of the way in the indicated direction. Then there are the uppity joggers who will get in your face for sharing a dirt path ~4m wide.

The biking culture is getting better here, but it can really grate on one's nerves.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#79

Post by bsder »

mdemare wrote: post #52

Some facts about cycling in the Netherlands: - After dark, head- and taillights are mandatory for cyclists, and you will be fined if you don't have them. - Cycling on the sidewalk is prohibited. This too is enforced. - Cyclists in the Netherlands are not generally very respectful of traffic laws - they will run red lights when they can. - Practically nobody wears helmets. - 184 cyclist deaths in 2013 (out of +- 10 mi…

> - 184 cyclist deaths in 2013 (out of +- 10 million active cyclists)

Um, isn't that actually quite a LOT. Do we really want to emulate that?

The annual cyclist death toll in San Francisco looks to be under 10 people a year. Right about the same level as the fatal car crash death toll per year.

Complaining about something that really looks purely accidental from a statistical viewpoint is not going to make people very sympathetic.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#80

Post by baddox »

terravion wrote: post #58
Nrsolis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to NYC. We have Citibike here and messengers and delivery people on bikes. And it's horrible. The bicyclists ROUTINELY violate nearly every sane traffic law on the books. They go the wrong way against traffic, refuse to stop for stop lights or pedestrians in crosswalks, ride on sidewalks, have few if any safety features like headlights or taillights, and on and on. If cyclists would simply follow the traffic law…

In New York cars routinely violate every law on parking, they break the speed limit on every block, change lanes without signaling, and block intersections. If cars would simply follow the laws that already exist there would be many fewer deadly accidents between cars and people who die when hit.

That's probably also true, and doesn't contradict the statement you are parodying.
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