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Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

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Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#71

Post by morgante »

joshuapants wrote: post #60
morgante wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Constitutionally, the president doesn't control a state religion, abortion, marriage, etc. The Establishment Clause is pretty clear that states should not and cannot enact state religions, and its up to the federal government to enforce that. The fact that Rand Paul is clearly biased by his religion makes him distinctly un-libertarian.

It seems like you're grasping at straws. Good luck finding a single human anywhere that isn't biased in some way. I'm also not aware of any Libertarian Cabal documents stating that nobody with vaguely libertarian views can have a religion, or that in having a religion one is so tainted as to be unable to compartmentalize one's personal and professional lives.

I never said libertarians can't be religious. Rather, it's a fundamental tenant of libertarianism that you should not use the organ of government to enforce your religious views on others.

On numerous occasions, Paul has referenced religious motivations for creating social policies. For example, he is opposed to same-sex marriage because it "offends him."

Paul is not a libertarian. He's just a standard anti-Federalist Republican.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#72

Post by chrisbennet »

lettergram wrote: post #3
clusterbits wrote: post #2

It almost sounds too good to be true.

Given he was one of the Senators forcing the government shutdown based on values, I suspect he is one of the more honest politicians. That being said, an honest politician... It's almost like we need another word other than politician.

Hey, if you can't get your way through voting, take the country hostage...

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#73

Post by benihana »

shitlord wrote: post #41
fleitz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's also against the President being allowed to execute US citizens with out charge or trial.

And against gay marriage, too! His defenders will claim that although he does not like it, he will still allow it. But that's not true either, because he will leave it to the states to decide (and about half of them will decide to ban it). Private prisons? Have at it. Urban poverty? Let the charities deal with it. Access to abortion? Similar response to gay marriage. The only reason he's popular on the internet is be…

Rather than pre-empting his "defenders'" comments, how about linking us to where he says he's against gay marriage and letting us judge for ourselves based on his words.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#74

Post by researcher88 »

morgante wrote: post #56
lettergram wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, two things.. (1) It seems you are just dismissing him and his father have similar ideas, which aren't necessarily any crazier than every other politician ever (i.e. social security is so awesome). Rand and Ron Paul both supported STATES rights, which lets be honest, makes it possible to move between states and have different taxes, laws, and unique experiences. This leads me to my second point... (2) "His re…

> Constitutionally, the president doesn't control a state religion, abortion, marriage, etc. The Establishment Clause is pretty clear that states should not and cannot enact state religions, and its up to the federal government to enforce that. The fact that Rand Paul is clearly biased by his religion makes him distinctly un-libertarian.

I think it makes him a politician more than anything. The guy has an MD from Duke; I doubt he is as religious as he seems.

The reality is, there is little upside in a Republican primary for saying he thinks gays should marry or for promoting a nuanced view on abortion. Just like his dance on saying he will increase defense spending after first proposing to cut it.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#75

Post by hifier »

This is my litmus test for all future elections until this issue is resolved. There is and will never be a candidate that reflects all or even most of my positions. But, if a candidate is willing to unequivocally say that they will end domestic surveillance programs and uphold the 4th amendment, they will get my vote over anyone else who shows even the slightest hesitation, period.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#76

Post by [deleted] »

higherpurpose wrote: post #62
zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #42

All presidential candidates make similar promises when they run, and then, when they get elected, they get exposed to the true reasons why most of these programs exist and they realize the reality is not as simple as it seemed from outside. And then, they perpetuate the status quo. Besides, I just can't stand libertarians who contradict their own positions saying that they want the government out of their lives excep…

On this issue I think Rand Paul has been quite consistent. He was among only a handful of Senators against the FISA Amendments Act renewal from 2012, when he proposed a "4th amendment act" that would require a warrant for all data requests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIyLlXBcbjo https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/12/why-we-should-all-care... He's been against the Patriot Act as well: http://www.theatlantic.com/p…

[deleted]

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#77

Post by morgante »

natmaster wrote: post #69
morgante wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to call someone who advocates against abortion and same-sex marriages a libertarian.

While Rand Paul is not a libertarian (this is a concept promoted by the media to make him seem radical), your understanding of abortion issues is quite off. The real debate about abortion is over when life that deserves protecting begins. There is nothing else anyone disagrees with. If the fetus was an animal PETA would be the only ones having issue; if the fetus was dead noone would have issue with removing it. Some…

I don't think Rand Paul is a libertarian (I was simply responding to the parent).

As for abortion, even if you consider the fetus a "person," I don't see how a libertarian would make a good case for the government to force the mother to continue to sustain and provide for it.

> Removing regulation over social issues from government IS a very libertarian philosophy.

Delegating to the states is very different from removing the regulation. The libertarian thing to do would be to ban such regulation.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#78

Post by morgante »

researcher88 wrote: post #65
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's a traditional U.S. states' rights conservative, an ideal intersecting with classical liberalism - less common these days due to the widespread influence of neoconservatism. He doesn't really touch on deeper libertarian or even minarchist philosophy at all. His stringent views on border security are also unusual for it (unless you're Hans-Hermann Hoppe). His platform ultimately rests on anti-federalism.

Don't you mean federalism? A lot of people seem to use it to signify states rights and a balance of power. Such as the historian podcaster Dan Carlin. Edit- I can't reply below but you are using the term incorrectly and in the context of Anti-Federalists from the 18th century. From Wikipedia on federalism: > In contrast, Europe has a greater history of unitary states than North America, thus European "federalism" arg…

No, federalism is what led to having a federal government in the first place (binding together the states into a nation).

The anti-federalists advocated for states rights and against a strong federal government.

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#79

Post by marincounty »

jfaucett wrote: post #43
lubos wrote: post #30

This is not surprising. Rand Paul, similar to his father Ron Paul, has very libertarian political views which means they prefer no government involvement, not just in the Internet but anywhere. This is not as good as it sounds. For example, he doesn't support FED in controlling money supply. But FED was instrumental in making USD the most stable currency in the last 100 years. He doesn't like energy regulations and b…

Some of you're statements about his political views appear to be false: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rand_Paul#Political_positions ) Its always nice to have a link when you make such claims :)

"Paul, who is an ophthalmologist, also asserts that he's heard of cases where vaccines have caused "profound mental disorders."

"I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," Paul said. "I'm not arguing vaccines are a bad idea. I think they're a good thing. But I think the parents should have some input."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/rand-paul-vaccine-eff...

I was kind of shocked when I heard a Ophthalmologist make such a pandering comment. He is a trained Doctor? I won't argue Libertinism on this site. I have a feeling this link will get more comments than when Paul Graham told us to be nice--essentially because we are jealous of successful people?

Re: Rand Paul Pledges to Immediately End NSA Mass Surveillance If Elected President

#80

Post by [deleted] »

morgante wrote: post #56
lettergram wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, two things.. (1) It seems you are just dismissing him and his father have similar ideas, which aren't necessarily any crazier than every other politician ever (i.e. social security is so awesome). Rand and Ron Paul both supported STATES rights, which lets be honest, makes it possible to move between states and have different taxes, laws, and unique experiences. This leads me to my second point... (2) "His re…

> Constitutionally, the president doesn't control a state religion, abortion, marriage, etc. The Establishment Clause is pretty clear that states should not and cannot enact state religions, and its up to the federal government to enforce that. The fact that Rand Paul is clearly biased by his religion makes him distinctly un-libertarian.

[deleted]
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