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Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

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Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#71
post #54
post #12

As someone who also came from poverty and dealt with some of these feelings, I found it helped to consider things on a global scale. Just being born in America makes me (and you too?) extremely lucky. All your limbs work? You can hear and see? It's all relative. These self-pity parties are generally counterproductive. No girlfriend by 30 and struggling very hard to get through interviews in an industry in such high d…

> Just being born in America makes me (and you too?) extremely lucky. Do you base that statement in your experience because you lived in other countries and can compare, or it is just what you have been told? ;)

Sure, I have lived in and visited some other countries.

Walking off the plane at the airport in Frankfurt and not being sniffed by dogs and treated like enemy of the state: qualitatively better.

Receiving free and needed medical attention in Cuba was heartwarming.

Hanging onto a laptop bag by a strap and narrowly avoiding a run-and-grab robbery in Antigua: lame. Offset by amazing geography, and a sense of Marley-style love and community.

Playing "gunshots-or-fireworks?" and watching cops throw down sandbags to soak up blood from a gang drive-by execution half a block from the apartment: pretty intense.

But I'm not walking miles to the well every day to fetch water. I don't have babies dying of Malaria. The situation for the destitute in America is bad, but I do believe intelligence can lead to upward mobility with less friction in this country than much of the rest of the world.

If I could chose from the entire menu, would I pick America? Probably the America I knew as a child, but probably not the America I live in now. But it would be far, far from my last pick. If I could take the known-quantity of America or be forced to roll the dice, yea I'll stay here.

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#72
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No religions have any helpful teachings when it comes to enlightening yourself." So you've studied them all and know with certainty that none could possibly be useful to the poster? Blithe anti-religious sentiment like this abounds on HN and it drives me crazy.

> So you've studied them all and know with certainty that none could possibly be useful to the poster? Having looked at every one of them is not a necessary criterion for having proof that no religions have helpful teachings for enlightening yourself. We don't need to input every possible number into an equation in order to make true statements about the nature of the equation. My claim about the reality of religions…

You're right about equations---but you're far from convincing me that no religion in existence could be helpful to the OP. I'm not saying I know the right path for this person, but claiming that such a vast and varied body of ideas, philosophies, and practices as are included in religion as a whole cannot be helpful is a vast and sweeping claim that I don't feel you've substantiated.

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#73
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you've studied them all and know with certainty that none could possibly be useful to the poster? Having looked at every one of them is not a necessary criterion for having proof that no religions have helpful teachings for enlightening yourself. We don't need to input every possible number into an equation in order to make true statements about the nature of the equation. My claim about the reality of religions…

You're right about equations---but you're far from convincing me that no religion in existence could be helpful to the OP. I'm not saying I know the right path for this person, but claiming that such a vast and varied body of ideas, philosophies, and practices as are included in religion as a whole cannot be helpful is a vast and sweeping claim that I don't feel you've substantiated.

If I tell you that you haven't understood my words, would you be able to go back and try to check my meaning again?

Ideas are not helpful for obtaining enlightenment, and no enlightened teacher tells others their own ideas. They only tell people 'what exists' in the world, just as it is. As it happens, there is a specific, and mandatory process which must be undergone in order to obtain enlightenment. You cannot gain enlightenment through the variety of spiritual practices promulgated by modern religions. I know this because none of them make the practitioner undergo that mandatory process. Additionally, there are no examples in the entirety of human history of people who have gained enlightenment through such practices.

Philosophies? I'd like you to show me any religions which have any true philosophy in them. Philosophy means the pursuit and revelation of what exists in the world. What religion can accurately reveal what exists in the world? You've only got to find one example of a religion which has 'truth' in it. In any case, no one can learn a precise 'truth' from a religion, because truths can only be seen and verified through specific problems. As a matter of fact, every religion only hinders you from opening your eyes to the reality of the religion. I think it will be important for you to understand that. This world already contains all the teachings that we need. Every truth is in the world. So what reason do religions have to exist? There's an important reason why the true teachers in human history did not want to start any religions. Some of them were killed by religious people for telling the truth about religions.

Practices? Those can be right or wrong, and to practice anything is not by any means limited to religious people. In that case, do you need to be part of a religion to perform whatever practice you refer to? If not, then it is not the religion which contributes the benefit of the practice. If so, then what practice are you referring to? If you don't want to have your knowledge verified, and you only are willing to make abstract claims, then it is not right to try to suggest your opinion to others. It's also not right to deny what someone says unless you have concrete proof –– and how much more so when it comes to such important matters as what we are discussing?

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#74
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No religions have any helpful teachings when it comes to enlightening yourself." So you've studied them all and know with certainty that none could possibly be useful to the poster? Blithe anti-religious sentiment like this abounds on HN and it drives me crazy.

> So you've studied them all and know with certainty that none could possibly be useful to the poster? Having looked at every one of them is not a necessary criterion for having proof that no religions have helpful teachings for enlightening yourself. We don't need to input every possible number into an equation in order to make true statements about the nature of the equation. My claim about the reality of religions…

> Having looked at every one of them is not a necessary criterion for having proof that no religions have helpful teachings for enlightening yourself.

Agreed, analytical proofs are possible without exhaustive examination. But you haven't provided one.

> My claim about the reality of religions is due to the fact that there is a fundamental disagreement between religious teachings and teachings from a real enlightened being.

The fundamental flaw -- well, at least a fundamental flaw, its not the only one -- in this argument is that it is about "teachings from a real enlightened being" but provides no justification for applying that to "helpful teachings for enlightening yourself."

It may be the case (though you have done very little to establish it) that no religion contains "teachings from a real enlightened being", but even if one assumes that is the case, it provides little support for your claim that no religions has "helpful teachings for enlightening yourself".

> However, Gautama warned people about religions for a reason.

But this warning has been transmitted -- through religions. And clearly this warning is a teaching that must be viewed as useful for enlightenment.

> That's why I'm quite certain that no religions properly transmit teachings that can enlighten people.

A stronger form of this -- that the things that must be understood for enlightenment cannot be properly transmitted -- is also a religious teaching. (see, e.g., the opening of the Tao Te Ching.)

> That's why anyone who can recognize what religions really are would never want to be tied to them and would never recommend the possibility that they can enlighten people.

There is a difference between arguing that religions enlighten people (an argument many active in religions I have known would oppose) and arguing that religions transmit teachings that, however imperfect, can be useful in the process of a person attaining enlightenment.

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you've studied them all and know with certainty that none could possibly be useful to the poster? Having looked at every one of them is not a necessary criterion for having proof that no religions have helpful teachings for enlightening yourself. We don't need to input every possible number into an equation in order to make true statements about the nature of the equation. My claim about the reality of religions…

> Having looked at every one of them is not a necessary criterion for having proof that no religions have helpful teachings for enlightening yourself. Agreed, analytical proofs are possible without exhaustive examination. But you haven't provided one. > My claim about the reality of religions is due to the fact that there is a fundamental disagreement between religious teachings and teachings from a real enlightened…

I'm guessing you've already made up your mind that you don't agree with me. But I've learned that it's important to defer belief and judgement until after having made a confirmation. So I'll answer as if you might be interested in a sincere discussion.

> The fundamental flaw -- well, at least a fundamental flaw, its not the only one -- in this argument is that it is about "teachings from a real enlightened being" but provides no justification for applying that to "helpful teachings for enlightening yourself."

That's incorrect. What you're missing is the fact that only an enlightened being knows how to make others be enlightened and only an enlightened being can give a teaching which can be practiced in order to obtain enlightenment.

Let's say you want to learn how to fix cars… how can you learn such a thing? There are only two possible sources of the necessary information. One of them is much faster: learn from mechanics. The second one is not usually possible for ordinary people to undergo: learn from the world. In both cases, you'll be looking at the principle and problems concerning cars.

Is it possible to learn how to fix cars from people who /only/ like cars but do not know anything about them? No. The best they can do is encourage you to find someone who really does know about how cars work and what kinds of problems and causes of problems they have. But encouragement from those who do not know anything is not an essential cause for enlightening oneself. If it were, wouldn't we have more than just one or two enlightened masters in our history? Please note my usage of the term, "cause".

To me, it's quite clear that people hear what they want. There were different types of people that had interest in Buddha while he was alive, but few of them were genuinely interested in his teaching, itself. Most people had their own, individual aims for associating with him, like curing their diseases or becoming wealthier.

You suppose that those who adhere to religions might know perhaps a small percentage about enlightenment. But if they did, they would be able to tell me what the basic teaching of the enlightened being is. That's like learning the number 1 when you start learning math. But the reality is that the only answers they can give are those they read in books written by others who are not enlightened. It's hard for you to believe me unless you travel with me and meet people. Unfortunately, if you have no intention to confirm the veracity of my words, I don't think you'll be interested in judging those cases with your own eyes either.

> But this warning has been transmitted -- through religions. And clearly this warning is a teaching that must be viewed as useful for enlightenment.

Have you ever heard of the telephone game? If not, have you ever tried to make photocopies of a photocopy? The fidelity of the signal degrades due to the inclusion of noise.

The level of any monks and religious adherents has not been high enough to preserve the quality of truth which was in the teaching of the real enlightened being. As a matter of fact, most of the teachings have been completely changed, and intentionally so.

In reality, spiritual teachings are rather like food for the consciousness. A fresh apple is quite nourishing, no? (Well, it used to be, a hundred years ago!) But if the apple goes bad, to eat it would be quite bad for you. Like eating a poisonous substance. Similarly, learning and practicing the deteriorated teachings will damage your consciousness. Perhaps if you've got quite a strong will, it will take up to a year. But those of weaker will fall into danger much more quickly upon contact.

So the problem is not that a person of sound spirit can't recognize that a rotten apple probably used to be a fresh apple and can then have a fair opportunity to judge whether or not they want to eat it. The problem is that a person of sound spirit can be harmed into losing their own consciousness through contact with religious teachings and they are not informed that such things are even bad for them. If you have a connection with religious teachings that claim to be about enlightenment, it is a direct cause to damage your ability to see and transmit the truth. They make you go in the exact opposite way of enlightening yourself and only generate more bad 'karma', rather than diminishing the influence of that karma. But it is absolutely imperative to be able to stop your karma in order to achieve an enlightenment, because you cannot enter samadhi if your karma can act. Its habit is to control you. Just because you do not want to have bad karma doesn't mean that it will disappear. Karma can only be suppressed by correctly learning and making yourself aware of 'what is' at all times. It cannot be suppressed by an escape into fantasy, nor by making attempts not to think about anything, regardless of how temporarily peaceful you feel after having done so. It constitutes an intentional lie on the part of monks that they leave out the result of practicing meditation when they borrow Buddha's name and teach meditation to others. Suppose that a living Buddha came to the world? Those who would be the most afraid of him are the monks. But they're comfortable with a Buddha's statue within their temple because a dead Buddha doesn't speak, and cannot make any critique of their behavior. He just smiles at them. This only reinforces and is interpreted of encouragement of their hypocrisy.

I mention modern Buddhism as an example. I hope that you can catch my meaning through the example, so that, suppose you're really interested, you can apply it to other cases which you think may exist in the world and check for yourself whether they do or do not have the same fundamental kind of problems.

> A stronger form of this -- that the things that must be understood for enlightenment cannot be properly transmitted -- is also a religious teaching. (see, e.g., the opening of the Tao Te Ching.)

I'm sorry to say that I can't verify whether Lao-tzu actually said or meant that. I would need his exact words, or closer to them, in order to check. But to tell you the truth, it's not the case that the things for understanding enlightenment can't be properly transmitted, as you have suggested.

It's quite simple for me to do it. I can prove it anytime, on the spot. However, even if I tell you the truth or teachings about enlightenment right here, can you understand them? Only a truthful person can recognize and understand the truth. Those who are untruthful don't want the truth revealed.

Have you heard of Lao-tzu's explanation on the three levels of people? He said that their level of cultivation of virtue can be seen through how they react when they hear the truth. Only those of a high level of cultivation of virtue react with delight when they hear the truth and try quite a lot to put it to practice. Those of the middle level seem to understand, but as a result, they don't really apply it. Meanwhile, those of low level can only ridicule the truth.

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having looked at every one of them is not a necessary criterion for having proof that no religions have helpful teachings for enlightening yourself. Agreed, analytical proofs are possible without exhaustive examination. But you haven't provided one. > My claim about the reality of religions is due to the fact that there is a fundamental disagreement between religious teachings and teachings from a real enlightened…

I'm guessing you've already made up your mind that you don't agree with me. But I've learned that it's important to defer belief and judgement until after having made a confirmation. So I'll answer as if you might be interested in a sincere discussion. > The fundamental flaw -- well, at least a fundamental flaw, its not the only one -- in this argument is that it is about "teachings from a real enlightened being" but…

> I'm guessing you've already made up your mind that you don't agree with me. But I've learned that it's important to defer belief and judgement until after having made a confirmation. So I'll answer as if you might be interested in a sincere discussion.

I don't agree with the specific claims you've articulated as they are articulated, but that's not an immutable fact, merely a contingent one. But I think the discussion has value, even if we disagree. And I think we might agree on the substance more than is apparent through the disagreement on the particular expression.

> What you're missing is the fact that only an enlightened being knows how to make others be enlightened

Taking, for the sake of argument, this is true (I don't think that it has been justified, however), it doesn't follow that a teaching from another source might not be useful in the course of enlightenment, only that the source couldn't know that the teaching was useful.

> and only an enlightened being can give a teaching which can be practiced in order to obtain enlightenment.

Assuming that enlightenment comes from practicing something that can be reduced to a teaching, if any being achieves enlightenment, they must do so on the basis of a practice they engaged in prior to achieving enlightenment, which they could also have provided to others as a teaching at that time. Even if they could not have known, for whatever definition of knowledge you are using, that it was a practice that would lead to enlightenment.

So, the specific argument you make here is unconvincing.

In general, and in wider scope, your broader argument seems to conflate the essential truth of enlightenment with practices which are useful along the path from where people are to enlightenment, and to conflate the inability to fully and accurately relate the former with an inability to relate anything about the latter. I do not disagree with the claim that no religion can communicate what enlightenment essentially is. I do disagree with the claim that no religion can communicate practices which are useful to those seeking enlightenment on that path. (I would also disagree with the claim that such useful information is the exclusive domain of any one religion.)

And I'd also say that many of the observations you make are things that many religions already teach, and which are among the teachings that they teach which are useful to enlightenment. (Its also true that while they are in the body of teachings of many religions, they are also teachings that are also often de-emphasized by religious authorities, and that that is a real problem. But that fact, too, is often among the teachings of the same religions.)

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#77

People who had it easy don't have your resilience . You may think it's clichè, but I've seen it again and again: easy life makes for an unhealthily low stress-threshold. On the other hand, your experiences might leverage future feats.

This is an incredibly important point. I have seen many extremely successful people with easy lives crumble when confronted with failure / hardship. Easy success also makes people complacent and lazy. The ability to strive through hardship is an undervalued skill which will pay huge dividends in the future.

I agree with both statements so much, I have seen this. I see it all the time in college, where kids fail a test or get a bad grade and just fall apart. I've had difficult time all throughout my education career, Ive had to bust my ass while others sail through everything, but this really has taught me a lot. If I fail I know its not the end of the world I just keep going and work even harder, but some people just crumble and give up. My roommate does this, he fails a class and instead of working harder at it he just drops the class because he was it to be easy.

OP, you have something a lot of people don't. Just Keep going.

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing you've already made up your mind that you don't agree with me. But I've learned that it's important to defer belief and judgement until after having made a confirmation. So I'll answer as if you might be interested in a sincere discussion. > The fundamental flaw -- well, at least a fundamental flaw, its not the only one -- in this argument is that it is about "teachings from a real enlightened being" but…

> I'm guessing you've already made up your mind that you don't agree with me. But I've learned that it's important to defer belief and judgement until after having made a confirmation. So I'll answer as if you might be interested in a sincere discussion. I don't agree with the specific claims you've articulated as they are articulated, but that's not an immutable fact, merely a contingent one. But I think the discuss…

You're right that there exist some flaws in my method of explanation and attempt to form a convincing argument for you. I'd like to thank you as I've learned something from you. However I would like to propose that any logical unsufficiencies in my explanatory efforts thus far do not at all implicitely indicate any diminishment of degree of truthfulness of my words. In plain words, I didn't try to tell others what I do not actually know, and I maintain that all my claims here are true and that anyone can verify these truths by proof that exists in reality. As a consequence of these qualities of what I've said, no proof will be found to contradict my claims, and yet my claims, to my knowledge, should be quite easily theoretically "falsifiable". My question for you is whether you would have an interest in the truth and try to verify these matters or maintain your existing knowledge and level of understanding.

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#79
I know this is probably not the best place to put this answer but I hope it finds its way to you and help you in your search.

I was born christian and 10+ years ago lost my faith and became a "non believer". I had a few scares during my wife's pregnancy a few months ago and I remember waiting outside the emergency room and wandering what to do. I didn't believe in God or anything, I had nothing to comfort me or give me hope. Then I realized "I am not strong enough to be an atheist". Don't get me wrong, I didn't overnight turn into a devout christian but I started doubting my doubts and my lack of faith and re-examining a few things.

Fast forward a couple of months and my twins were born and I wanted to baptize them. A good friend of mine told me why bother if you don't believe. When we baptize in our church we have to raise our right hand, face the alter and accept the trinity. I didn't want to be a hypocrite and do that knowingly that I didn't believe. So I went and talked to the priest and told him how I felt. I asked him to recommend books to help me "convert back", help me believe. Surprisingly, he told me "what's the point? anything you read, you will question, doubt and read with the intention to find holes" so his only recommendation is to pray once a day and read one chapter from the new testament every day. He told me I don't have to understand or believe what I am reading but he told me to do it for a month and see what happens. I am 2 weeks into it. It's hard. I still don't 100% believe. But there is something changing. I don't know what it is but I will continue with this journey and see where it leads me.

On a side note, I read a fantastic book that answered a ton of my questions - it is called The Reason For God by Timothy Keller. Very easy read and targets people like us - educated and secular with tons of doubt.

I know these are not solutions to your problems but maybe you will find comfort and hope in christianity.

PS: Please keep the "religion hate" speech to a minimum - I have heard it all - actually I have said it all :)

Re: Ask HN: Why do I have to struggle with everything?

#80

I know this is probably not the best place to put this answer but I hope it finds its way to you and help you in your search. I was born christian and 10+ years ago lost my faith and became a "non believer". I had a few scares during my wife's pregnancy a few months ago and I remember waiting outside the emergency room and wandering what to do. I didn't believe in God or anything, I had nothing to comfort me or give…

Religion is like cancer, ones it got to you, its very hard to get rid of it.
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