> However, we are aware that there are still occasional problems, which results in the Driver having to either manually tell the train where it is via the "location not found" option in the TMS, or in the event of that not working, using the emergency door release option in the train management system. So... we added GPS to the trains so that doors could only be opened at stations. Then, we realised that this was a t…
Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
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Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#72> Operation of Class 377 train doors require a (GPS) signal to identify that the train is in a station to allow the Driver to open the doors. Effectively this prevents the doors being operated in error when the train is not at a station and as such is a safety feature of the trains. Was there some epidemic of doors being opened outside stations that I missed? This smacks of a solution looking for a problem
The article wouldn't load for me, but did it say anything about why they don't just require the train to be stopped for the doors to open?
Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#73Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#74> ... and trains have needed to be rebooted. Since when that default solution to any problem of any device embedded with CPU, is to reboot ? Welcome to the digital age!
Since the digital age started, aka when CPU was invented. Rebooting and erasing all rewritable memory gets the system into a known good state.
People generally don't notice because the system doesn't beep or display a boot message (if it even has a display).
Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#75I can't believe HN is reacting to this as if checking location is a bad idea. It does have an emergency override. On the underground, particularly during rush hour, doors opening on the wrong side, or in the wrong place, could cause people to fall out of the train onto the tracks, in the dark, and risk serious injury or even death (especially with electrified rails). And using GPS and repeaters in the few spots where…
Using an unauthenticated, jammable signal for a safety critical function is wrong , not something dictated by the practicality or expediency of the solution. It is absolutely wrong and stupid. Like Therac stupid. And as someone mentioned below, there is already a solution for this exact problem; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balise
Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#76SDO, CSDE: Firstly, some platforms are too short to fit all of the doors on, especially with the lengths of trains being extended. Thus at some platforms it is necessary to ensure that the first or last doors of the train, or both, are not unlocked.
The London Underground has its own system to do this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Door_Operation ). Here it appears they decided to use GPS, but the LU almost certainly uses a much simpler (and more reliable system).
Of course, if a GPS fix isn't obtained, you don't know whether you're at a short platform or not, so you can't assume anything.
A related safety issue is whether drivers open the doors on the right side of the train (!). Yes, believe it or not, they sometimes get this wrong. When the London Underground moved to one-man train operation (meaning that the doors were controlled by the driver, rather than by a separate guard), they had some issues with this happening. They responded by introducing a simple, low-level system called "Correct Side Door Enable", which uses an electrical loop by the side of the track in platforms, which is detected by the train and allows the train to determine that a) it is in a station and b) which side the platform is on. This prevents the driver from opening the doors in error.
You can find some information on CSDE here: http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/correct_side_door_...
I would guess that the LU's SDO system uses some similar or even interrelated mechanism.
Metro vs. Rail: Note that on metro trains (e.g. the majority of London Underground trains) the doors usually open automatically, whereas on other trains you have to press a button to open the doors once it illuminates. This makes the potential consequences of accidentally opening the doors on the wrong side worse on tube trains, especially when you consider how packed they can get. Whereas with a train like the class 377, a driver would have to unlock the door on the wrong side and then the passenger would have to accidentally open the door on the wrong side. So the consequences of accidentally unlocking the doors on the wrong side is not -that- severe, which makes the apparent difficulty and obscurity of the overrides available to the driver (plus the implication that the drivers aren't properly trained on their operation) all the more ridiculous.
(A particularly curious variant is found on some trains of the Paris metro; the doors try and open as soon as the driver tells them to, but a mechanical latch on the doors prevents it. A passenger has to move up the latch before the doors can open. The latches were probably retrofitted, perhaps to mitigate unnecessary heat loss, but it also serves as a safety measure. This system has the advantage over a button-based system that a malfunctioning microcontroller cannot randomly open a door at inopportune times, though this is a rather academic advantage given that I am unaware of such cases.)
I have myself ridden the 377, and on one occasion I did notice an unusual delay before the doors unlocked, of about a minute, which involved the "door out of order" lamp momentarily flashing on and off a few times, perhaps suggesting some sort of train reboot.
I find the term 'GPS repeater' strange. The nature of GPS would lead me to believe that 'repeating' GPS would be rather difficult, though I could be mistaken. It seems more likely that by 'GPS repeater' what they actually mean is some sort of overriding 'you are at station #27' signal, perhaps implemented much like the LU's CSDE system. The Wikipedia page for SDO seems to confirm this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_door_operation - note that 'Thameslink' and 'First Capital Connect' are effectively synonymous).
The idea that not being able to quickly open the doors is a safety issue seems quite peculiar to me. On the 377 and all non-metro trains, all doors are fitted with passenger-operable emergency releases. There are also somewhat anonymous emergency releases which could be operated from outside the train by platform staff. Both such releases are mandated and governed by railway standard GM/RT2473 (which can be found here, along with some rail accident reports referencing it: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gm/rt2473 )
That said, there is one way in which the Class 377's doors are implemented in an obviously deficient way: if you hold down the open button before the doors are unlocked, the doors will not open when they are. You then have to release and re-depress the button. In other words, whoever programmed the door erroneously chose an edge-triggered behaviour rather than a level-triggered one. This is in contrast to the buttons on the Class 319 (which the Class 377 is replacing), which behave correctly. I previously ranted about this here: http://www.devever.net/~hl/train377
Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
The article wouldn't load for me, but did it say anything about why they don't just require the train to be stopped for the doors to open?
Train might stop in places that aren't stations. Also different stations need the doors on different sides to open. Therefore its useful to know exact location of train.
Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#78We'll see more positive train control as the technology gets cheaper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control
It doesn't replace operators, but instead enforces speed limits and stops. It hasn't been implemented in more trains mostly because it's expensive.
Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#79> However, we are aware that there are still occasional problems, which results in the Driver having to either manually tell the train where it is via the "location not found" option in the TMS, or in the event of that not working, using the emergency door release option in the train management system. So... we added GPS to the trains so that doors could only be opened at stations. Then, we realised that this was a t…
I don't think they made the train. They bought an 'off the shelf' train that had that feature. A small number of Thameslink stations are underground (about 4 out of 30 or so) and so they installed GPS boosters there. Its not that crazy really. Interesting though.
Re: Train doors require GPS signal to open despite stations being underground (2014)
#80> Operation of Class 377 train doors require a (GPS) signal to identify that the train is in a station to allow the Driver to open the doors. Effectively this prevents the doors being operated in error when the train is not at a station and as such is a safety feature of the trains. Was there some epidemic of doors being opened outside stations that I missed? This smacks of a solution looking for a problem
it's more common that the driver opens the doors on the wrong side, or at a short platform opens all the doors instead of, say the first 8
I'm assuming that the edge of the platform will always match the edge of a car, and that it is not possible to board off-platform cars (otherwise they wouldn't be off-platform), and that there will be no people in the "off-platform" cars. Otherwise, how would they get off? It seems extremely inefficient to start the train just to move it half its length, then stop it again.