Live data from Hacker News

Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com

71–80 of 165 posts

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#71
post #17

The article doesn't provide anything to back the claim that moral opinions may be universally, non-subjectively true. The cartoonist example is deeply flawed. We're outraged because this event violated our deepest beliefs and values we hold dear, not because it violated some universal eternal moral law. We also know that there were people that weren't saddened by this event too. This is the problem I have with many p…

It seems that philosophers rarely make use of rigorous logic even though they stand to benefit from it immensely.

Contemporary academic philosophy is full of rigorous logic. Either you're ignorant of what actual academic philosophers do, or you can't recognize rigorous logic when you see it.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#72
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are.

For example?

- Efficiency is not just the means; it's the actual end.

- The means justify the end.

- Truth is all that matters. Therefore, to lie is morally bad.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#73
post #17

The article doesn't provide anything to back the claim that moral opinions may be universally, non-subjectively true. The cartoonist example is deeply flawed. We're outraged because this event violated our deepest beliefs and values we hold dear, not because it violated some universal eternal moral law. We also know that there were people that weren't saddened by this event too. This is the problem I have with many p…

The point of the article is not to prove that values are objective. Rather, the point is to undermine the fact/opinion distinction. If moral sentiments were mere opinion, then there'd be no point to arguing over whether some action is right or wrong. When you tell me that you really like the taste of sushi, I don't argue with you - I just accept that that's your taste. But that we don't simply accept as 'taste' other…

I do accept other's moral sentiments as taste - maybe I'm some sort of sociopath? To hell with me. I see arguing over right and wrong as the mob enforcing its rule.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#74
post #54

The author declines to demonstrate to the reader that there are moral facts. He attempted reductiones ad absurdum fall completely flat, e.g., > If it’s not true that it’s wrong to murder a cartoonist with whom one disagrees, then how can we be outraged? ...As if nobody has ever been outraged on the basis of their opinions! He also fails to even mention what a moral fact would consist of. He doesn't say whether he agr…

> Fact: Something that is true about a subject and can be tested or proven.

That could be some positivist definition.

But in general a fact is something held or believed to be true, in that context it doesn't matter if it's self evident, deduced from other facts, known through experience, etc. Also that means some largely held facts can be just plain wrong.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#75
post #44

The ignorance is much easier to process upon learning that the author works at an episcopal church and is on the committee of two "Societies of Christian Philosophers". http://www.justinmcbrayer.com/#!leadership/c53p

Despite it being ad-hominem, I'll let it play because it helped stop my eyes from continuing to roll every time I replayed his arguments.

That was my only goal.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#76
post #16

Not a single argument against moral relativism was put forth in this article. But they mentioned that there actually are moral facts ad nauseum without a reason. "Furthermore, if proof is required for facts, then facts become person-relative. Something might be a fact for me if I can prove it but not a fact for you if you can’t." Yes, yes, they are! Welcome to reality, a place where we can't even be sure it exists! I…

> I am proud of this educational system, teaching kids intellectual integrity and preventing them from accepting random statements as true facts just because someone repeats over and over again that they're true!

What about the teaching discussed in the article about there being no moral facts? Should kids accept this proposition just because the education system repeats it over and over again? The teaching itself is a statement with moral implications. Where is the proof for the statement itself?

> Welcome to reality, a place where we can't even be sure it exists!

This viewpoint also contains a truth claim. Taken to its logical conclusion, there would be no way to prove anything since it's all an illusion.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#77
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I meant was, his son's blank stare is exactly my reaction as a 30 year old adult --- I can't comprehend how this guy doesn't comprehend how stupid his questions are.

Could you please explain why you think this guy's questions are stupid? They seemed like good questions to me. His son's school's definitions of "fact" and "opinion" seem to not be mutually exclusive, which seems to contradict the implicit assumptions in the exercises assigned to the students.

I rather liked the article.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#78
post #17

The article doesn't provide anything to back the claim that moral opinions may be universally, non-subjectively true. The cartoonist example is deeply flawed. We're outraged because this event violated our deepest beliefs and values we hold dear, not because it violated some universal eternal moral law. We also know that there were people that weren't saddened by this event too. This is the problem I have with many p…

So universal human rights are not objectively good? It's fairly easy to assert that some moral standards are objectively better. Take slavery for example, society a practices it while society b does not. Which society gives a better environment for the whole of its people?

And the same thing can be extended to take your example, don't know why you've put in game theory into the mix, but in general people tend to live better lives where there is law and order rather than live a life under constant threat and having to be the biggest meanest SOB out there to feel safe.

Not to mention that when you live in a society in which your home and self can be raped and pillaged at any moment you tend to invest quite a bit of resources in protecting your own self. While this can still be seen in society today e.g. Police forces, safes, guns etc. It's no where near the amount of resources that would be wasted if you would be living in the wild west.

While it might not be politically correct to think that you live in a society which is more moral and better than others, the truth is that if you live in the west you most likely live in one. And and in fact he luxury of this life style is what allows you to live in that nice little bubble of political correctness.

I personally believe that moral equivalence (or relativism) leads to moral bankruptcy, and sadly too many people have gone under. They promote the equivalence of the moral values of cultures with completely "different" moral values, values that sorry to say in many cases are objectively less "moral" than modern western values. Cultures that if the roles would've been reversed would not only let them speak but would actively silence them.

And while i might agree that everything might be just an opinion as you would said, there just might be some opinions which are better than others. I would like to live in a free and open society, a society that protects it's members and grants them as many rights as possible without hurting the rights of others and without devolving into anarchy. I rather live in a society that does not practice slavery, where women are equals, and no one gives a fuck what is on your plate or who is in your bedroom. And while you might think that a society that stones women for adultery and hangs homosexuals on construction cranes at the local square is just as moral correct as the one mentioned i would disagree. And if you want to quantify that, just quantify the well being of its members, including the ones that would be stoned, hanged, or locked in prison for life for being of or attracted to the wrong sex or simply by promoting other ideas.

And yes there is a good reason why I've not continued to rebuttal on that "stealing from others" example you've given, because It's too simplistic and irrelevant. A society can be morally bankrupt and still practice law and order. And I'm pretty sure that you would not want to live in a society which either allows crime to be committed without consequences nor practices cruel and unusual punishment in some eye for an eye biblical fashion. Because as much as i would think that the guy who broke into my flat and got away with my TV deserves to pay for his crime (and get some help in the process) i don't think that a boy who stole a loaf of bread from the market should get his hand chopped off because the law says so.

Oh and of course this is all my opinion, but i think given the chance we know exactly in which society people would chose to live in.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#79
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sun rose today is a fact only if you can prove it. I think you're crazy everyone knows the sun just appeared out of nowhere. PS: Your aunt Sally called, she misses you.

No, facts are facts even if no one can prove it. It's just that if you can't prove it, you can't know if a certain claim (like "the sun rose today") is actually a fact or not.

I'm having trouble with this.

Can you prove that what you said is a fact?

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#80

Moral 'facts' require a universal standard of morality. It's hard to come up with a truly universal standard. The best answer I've seen is: Man's life. "Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil." -Ayn Rand [1] [1] http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/morality.html

That doesn't set a standard, it just moves the discussion to "what is proper to the life a rational being", which is still completely subjective.

It progresses the discussion to there, by being a first principle of morality. From there, with a definition of rationality, "what is proper to the life a rational being" can be answered. For example, death is not proper to the life a rational being. From that follows certain things to avoid. Using this logic, those things would be morally wrong.
Post reply on HN