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Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

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Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#71

Post by kyllo »

lmm wrote: post #66
potatosareok wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvoted you because I agree. JVM has many strong points but I don't think anyone is disputing that startup time is a weakness. I've used some java tools that you invoke from a command line and I'm always slightly annoyed by how slow they are. As an aside - I was trying to reduce -Xmx to improve HelloWorld startup (lol idk...) and Xmx smaller then 1024k and it couldn't start up with less then 1024k so there's that. On…

Worry about -Xms rather than -Xmx for startup times. I suspect there are ways to make it faster (e.g. there's a nashorn runner that starts up appreciably faster than "proper" java), but the main use case for java is server-side programs that run for days or weeks between restarts, so it's optimized for that use case.

the main use case for java is server-side programs that run for days or weeks between restarts, so it's optimized for that use case.

Unfortunately for the folks who still have to use Java desktop software written in Swing.

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#72

Post by kyllo »

wz1000 wrote: post #39
JackMorgan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you needed Schema, which can ensure the shape and contents of a map as :pre and :post assertions in every function you annotate, then be turned off for production use. https://github.com/Prismatic/schema That's why I come back to Clojure every time, if I need anything, it's available as a library. Need better typesafety? Just add in what you need with a macro or two. (Schema is not much more than that). T…

I agree with most of what you said, but > Lastly, types only give you a single dimension of safety. Dependent types can express a huge number of things, and are often limited only by your ability to describe what exactly you want.

Do you use a dependently typed language in production?

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#73

Post by adamc »

threeseed wrote: post #7

This seems like bit of a short sighted move not that I disagree with it. Project Jigsaw which will be a big part of Java 9 aims to make the JVM more modular which will reduce the memory footprint substantially. Personally I would like to see a version of Clojure that targets this JVM specifically and abandons backwards compatibility. Leaving the JVM means you abandon the decade of libraries many of which you simply c…

Jigsaw keeps getting moved back, to the point that I don't have much faith it will be in version 9. Wait and see, I guess.

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#74

Post by innguest »

616c wrote: post #68

I like the side-note. > As a side note, expressing configurations in Clojure S-expressions makes a ton of sense. Clojure S-expressions provide a superset of JSON and Clojure's eval allows you to define a function to compute certain values. It's an escape hatch so that you're configuration files don't need to become accidentally Turing complete. The Turing complete nature of your configuration files is well defined as…

Tell me about it. First thing I asked when I saw HTML over a decade ago was "Oh so you can close tags out of order?" - "Uhm, no, the last opened tag must be closed first" - "Then why do I need to say its name when closing? There's no ambiguity, it's always 'close the last opened tag', so why say its name again?". Folks at W3C must not know Lisp.

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#75

Post by coding4all »

616c wrote: post #68

I like the side-note. > As a side note, expressing configurations in Clojure S-expressions makes a ton of sense. Clojure S-expressions provide a superset of JSON and Clojure's eval allows you to define a function to compute certain values. It's an escape hatch so that you're configuration files don't need to become accidentally Turing complete. The Turing complete nature of your configuration files is well defined as…

Once you use Clojure's EDN, you start to cringe when you see JSON.

Spec - https://github.com/edn-format/edn

Walkthrough - http://www.compoundtheory.com/clojure-edn-walkthrough/

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#76

Post by Elrac »

innguest wrote: post #74
616c wrote: post #68

I like the side-note. > As a side note, expressing configurations in Clojure S-expressions makes a ton of sense. Clojure S-expressions provide a superset of JSON and Clojure's eval allows you to define a function to compute certain values. It's an escape hatch so that you're configuration files don't need to become accidentally Turing complete. The Turing complete nature of your configuration files is well defined as…

Tell me about it. First thing I asked when I saw HTML over a decade ago was "Oh so you can close tags out of order?" - "Uhm, no, the last opened tag must be closed first" - "Then why do I need to say its name when closing? There's no ambiguity, it's always 'close the last opened tag', so why say its name again?". Folks at W3C must not know Lisp.

I'm happy to disclaim that I have nothing to do with the mess that is the HTML standard! But if I had to guess I would say that the ending tags in HTML add a modicum of redundancy that allows for some of the crazy/creepy/smart error correction browsers have been doing for decades:

You can close your P tags or not; if you don't, the next opeining one is a new paragraph, with the previous one assumed closed. Similarly with LI tags in lists or the multiple levels of stuff in TABLE.

That makes HTML "code" marginally easier (at least in terms of effort) for humans to write and maybe also read, and for programs to error-check and correct. It's also led to waves of shitty HTML code and generations of smarter programs to guess the intentions of stupid HTML generators.

XML, being more strictly defined, could have followed the lead of Lisp and done without the closing tags. I guess people felt the need for a security blanket of closing-checkable tags, or its slightly better human-readability.

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#77

Post by 616c »

coding4all wrote: post #75
616c wrote: post #68

I like the side-note. > As a side note, expressing configurations in Clojure S-expressions makes a ton of sense. Clojure S-expressions provide a superset of JSON and Clojure's eval allows you to define a function to compute certain values. It's an escape hatch so that you're configuration files don't need to become accidentally Turing complete. The Turing complete nature of your configuration files is well defined as…

Once you use Clojure's EDN, you start to cringe when you see JSON. Spec - https://github.com/edn-format/edn Walkthrough - http://www.compoundtheory.com/clojure-edn-walkthrough/

I was excited to hear someone's Guile Scheme answere to Sinatra, Artanis (yes, I know, cute), led me to the Summer of Lisp winner list, including this of course and the Learn You a Datalog guy. Naturally, that led me to EDN.

Thanks for reminding my to finished the EDN docs.

http://www.learndatalogtoday.org/

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#78

Post by [deleted] »

coding4all wrote: post #75
616c wrote: post #68

I like the side-note. > As a side note, expressing configurations in Clojure S-expressions makes a ton of sense. Clojure S-expressions provide a superset of JSON and Clojure's eval allows you to define a function to compute certain values. It's an escape hatch so that you're configuration files don't need to become accidentally Turing complete. The Turing complete nature of your configuration files is well defined as…

Once you use Clojure's EDN, you start to cringe when you see JSON. Spec - https://github.com/edn-format/edn Walkthrough - http://www.compoundtheory.com/clojure-edn-walkthrough/

[deleted]

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#79

Post by nickik »

smenko wrote: post #36
JackMorgan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you needed Schema, which can ensure the shape and contents of a map as :pre and :post assertions in every function you annotate, then be turned off for production use. https://github.com/Prismatic/schema That's why I come back to Clojure every time, if I need anything, it's available as a library. Need better typesafety? Just add in what you need with a macro or two. (Schema is not much more than that). T…

Oh, god, thanks for reminding me about the whole agent/atom/ref hell - another reason I'd rather erase the whole Clojure experience from my brain altogether...

Jesus, maybe you were not able to read a clojure book befor you started. Its amazingly simple to explain how to write thread safe code with clojure, and pretty easy to add concurrency safly.

There are 3 concepts that are all diffrent, and a couple yours ago core.async was added. All in all thats a amazingly simple and powerful combination. Everybody I have heard is pretty happy with these tools. What is your problem?

Re: Pixie: A sweet Clojure-ish language

#80

Post by davexunit »

Gonzih wrote: post #58

Language and implementation both look very promising! I was looking for small footprint and fast startup modern lisp for a long time for my embed hobby projects. And finally it's here! I'm really excited about this language and where it stands now compared to when I first discovered it.

You should check out Scheme implementations like Guile and Chicken.
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