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Show me the salary!

blog.jobbox.io

71–80 of 191 posts

Re: Show me the salary!

#71

As a small business owner who's done a few successful casting calls, the problem with this article comes down to their first answer: > Yes, you have quantity, but what about quality? How much time will you spend sorting the wheat from the chaff? How much application spam will you have to review and dispose of? And of the relevant ones, how many under- and over-qualified candidates do you need to sift through because…

I have to disagree with this. If you don't do your market research ahead of time and reserve enough space in the budget to close a deal with the person you want, you are wasting the time of everyone who could close such a deal elsewhere.

They are not wasting your time. You are wasting theirs. The candidate cannot reasonably determine how well your company is able to monetize their skills ahead of time. It's the employer's job to figure that out, and offer a reasonable fraction thereof to the employee. The employer should know that the position will be profitable, otherwise advertising it as permanent would be a misrepresentation. If you don't know how technical professionals will make you money (or cut your costs), and to what extent, you have no business hiring them.

That's why whenever a company starts to discuss salary before their goals for the unfilled position and my qualifications, I back away.

Re: Show me the salary!

#72
post #5

I wonder what happens if test-engineer Bob finds out that there is a new job-opening for a test-engineer in his company, with a salary that is significantly higher than his own current salary.

Companies like that tend to complain about how it's so hard to keep staff!

Re: Show me the salary!

#73
post #53

I've got a handful of general rules around salary that tell me not to apply for certain jobs: - I don't apply to jobs that don't list a salary range. This is a red flag that tells me that the employer doesn't have the budget to pay market rates and that applying and interviewing could be a colossal waste of time for both of us. I get that the employer may not be willing to pay what I want based on my experience, etc,…

temp work with the possibility of extension is very common around here for both ends of the skill spectrum. The lower end is hard to evaluate, so companies give themselves an out that is not called a layoff. On the high end, accounting comes into play: Consulting fits a different bucket than full time employees, so often it's much easier to hire a consultant and pay him well than to hire the same person full time. I…

> As a consultant, they were able to offer me a whooping 60% more, and that's after I accounted for all the benefits of the full time position.

As a consultant, you're responsible for paying taxes that they would normally pay, which when combined with other benefits represents up to 50% of your total salary as a normal employee. You also lose out on a number of legal protections you gain as a regular employee.

Re: Show me the salary!

#74
Guys, there are countries where the candidate is expected to state their salary and not the company. The thinking is that the candidate is the seller (i.e. receives cash) and the company is the buyer (i.e. pays cash)!! We can use an ISO99-standard car analogy here for their thinking:

Think of the candidate as the salesman of a car (themselves), and the employer as the buyer of the car, who wants to use it for something.

Then this actually makes perfect sense. Doesn't the seller usually list their price rather than the buyer? (who keeps their range a secret, or even has a much wider range as they have a choice of cars.)

It would be like walking into an auto showroom and the seller (get your mind around this: in the analogy the job candidate is the car/salesperson, but selling themselves rather than a car) asking the shopper to state how much the shopper is willing to pay (shopper = employer in this case, since employer is the one paying, and has a choice of 'cars'). Or at least state a range. Shopper (=employer) don't have to do it - you can ask what the cars are going for first.

Who is at more fault: if a car salesperson refuses to tell you what the cars are going for (job candidate doesn't say how much he or she will work for) or if a buyer refuses to tell you what they have budgeted (the shopper doesn't say how much they're willing to pay, and just wants to see some cars.)

Like all ISO99 car analogies, it's quite a good one, in this case because in fact the buyer and seller both do have a range, i.e. the buyer can consider different prices, and the seller can often be flexible within a single car.

Also there is another reason not to list salary ranges: absurdity. We can conceive of a buyer of a car, given certain circumstances such as a new well-paid job they must drive to or near, but being broke after a period of unemployment, considering everything from $500 to $50,000. It's conceivable, depending on the terms involved, for this particular purchase ("hire"). But that is a range of two orders of magnitude.

Sound absurd? A one-person startup might hire someone from an intern salary all the way through six figures, even doing similar things (if not much has been built), depending on age, experience, whether any of the salary can be deferred, who they can find, etc..

You don't need much imagination to realize that a cofounder salary range is: $0-$100K salary, 0%-50% equity.

With a little imagination, that range actually widens considerably, but I don't want to make your brains explode. (With negative salaries or much higher than 50% effective equity, etc.)

It's all on the table.

If you don't want to interview for positions outside of your salary range, here's a thought: 1) call up whoever posted the advertisement and tell them you don't want to apply if it's far outside of your salary range. tell them what it is - you don't even have to identity yourself. if it's outside their range they'll tell you. 2) (I don't really recommend this.) Send your CV (your car or house brochure) with a price range.

It's somewhat rude, sure, but I guarantee it's better than not letting 100 employers see your resume/CV at all, because you've filtered them out based on a lack of listed salary and refuse to take even 5 seconds to drop an email with an attachment.

The line "Expected salary: ___" is guaranteed to filter out anyone whose budget is less. On the other hand, you might filter out people whose budgets are more or people who consider this very rude, and forward.

Re: Show me the salary!

#75

A big problem here in London is the willingness of big firms, especially financial ones to pay market rate in all conditions. An example: I work at an IB, doing Python/Quant development. We are presented with two candidates to interview. Candidate 1 is ok, has a year or two of Python but otherwise mostly Java background. Did so-so in the algo and numerical discussions, was ok in the problem solving categories. He was…

if you're flipping something you wouldn't tell the buyer what you bought it for.

this has nothing to do with which party is stating the price.

Re: Show me the salary!

#76

Every job spam email I get that has the salary listed gets my respect, and I immediately forward it to my friends and ex-coworkers (if the role fits). To the interesting job spam I usually reply with the question of the salary range, and 95% of the time there's no reply back.

>To the interesting job spam I usually reply with the question of the salary range, and 95% of the time there's no reply back.

have you tried giving them a call and verbally stating that you find it interesting, state why you're a match, but say that you don't want to apply if it's outside your range. then ask if (number) is within what they would consider? since you've pre-qualified yourself they must answer, and will be looking forward to your application if you match.

Re: Show me the salary!

#77

I've got a handful of general rules around salary that tell me not to apply for certain jobs: - I don't apply to jobs that don't list a salary range. This is a red flag that tells me that the employer doesn't have the budget to pay market rates and that applying and interviewing could be a colossal waste of time for both of us. I get that the employer may not be willing to pay what I want based on my experience, etc,…

I usually follow all of these. The one thing that gets me is when a recruiter calls me up. I usually talk to them because I don't want to be a dick and you never know they my actually be valuable one day. I tell them my salary. "oh well this one pays about 70% of that and it's an 8 month contract. I'd like to put you in for this". I'm not leaving a full time position for a contract position with less pay. I might con…

I find telling recruiters my salary is a really bad idea. They then tell the company I am applying to what my salary is, which is a really shitty way to start off salary negotiations. I actually just don't work with recruiters anymore due to such a shitty experience.

Re: Show me the salary!

#78

I've got a handful of general rules around salary that tell me not to apply for certain jobs: - I don't apply to jobs that don't list a salary range. This is a red flag that tells me that the employer doesn't have the budget to pay market rates and that applying and interviewing could be a colossal waste of time for both of us. I get that the employer may not be willing to pay what I want based on my experience, etc,…

It looks like showing salary is more common in USA but in other countries it is NOT a norm.... and unfortunately this gives an edge to the employer to play the game the way they want as very rarely supply is less than demand!

Re: Show me the salary!

#79
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you can afford to stretch your range up to attract an elite candidate you will do. Explaining to people who are perfectly well qualified for the job including your own existing employees why they're at the bottom of the range is an uncomfortable conversation... much more uncomfortable than explaining why an actually-hired elite candidate whose been given additional responsibilities earns 50% more salary.

> Explaining to people who are perfectly well qualified for the job including your own existing employees why they're at the bottom of the range is an uncomfortable conversation I would imagine having to explain to your employees why you're underpaying them is a difficult conversation. But the problem is that's the employee's know, the problem is that you're underpaying them.

Sure. But just because you're more likely to pay a new hire more than your existing staff than less doesn't mean they're underpaid, or indeed not paid comfortably above market rates for their skillset (above-market payers often have the most opaque salary structures)

Most employers able to pay market rate or better would rather attract candidates for a position that are substantially better than their existing employees than substantially worse, so the feasible salary range is naturally skewed upwards even if you pad it at the bottom. Most employees don't think they belong in the bottom half of the salary range for their position, even if they do. Something has to give, and its usually transparency.

Re: Show me the salary!

#80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually follow all of these. The one thing that gets me is when a recruiter calls me up. I usually talk to them because I don't want to be a dick and you never know they my actually be valuable one day. I tell them my salary. "oh well this one pays about 70% of that and it's an 8 month contract. I'd like to put you in for this". I'm not leaving a full time position for a contract position with less pay. I might con…

I find telling recruiters my salary is a really bad idea. They then tell the company I am applying to what my salary is, which is a really shitty way to start off salary negotiations. I actually just don't work with recruiters anymore due to such a shitty experience.

You can tell them a high target that would absolutely get your interest in the job. If it hits, great next step in your career. If it misses, no skin off your back.
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