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The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

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Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#71

Post by bkmartin »

aceperry wrote: post #50
toomuchtodo wrote: post #3

The title should be: "Startups with business models based on sidestepping worker protections and labor regulations are being sued to death". As they should be.

Absolutely! Glad to see that most commenters here see that this gig economy is really bsed on exploitation.

Is it really based on exploitation? Take for instance one of my best friends who lives in the D.C. area. He was just raving to me about how he made of $300 in one night driving for Uber. Now, of course he has to pay for his own gas and wear and tear on his car, but he did not feel exploited. Not saying that every "gig economy" company pays well, but I don't think you can say it is all based on exploitation. I think that it really starts out as something more innocent. The idea that there is a certain population with need A. There is another population willing to perform tasks to satisfy need A. Somebody builds a platform to bring those two together and take a slice of the pie because it looks like a really big pie. Then once it is created, they don't execute it well or find out that the people with need A don't really want to pay that much, or some other factor that leads to squeezing the people satisfying need A because the company wants to be profitable. Squeezing the people doing the work was probably not the idea from the outset, it was probably much more positively thought of as in they thought they could give people a chance to truly earn a respectable amount of money.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#73

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

habosa wrote: post #53

I totally agree with the comments saying that Uber and others are trying to get employee-level control over people with contractor-level benefits. The guys who drive Uber for 20,30, even 50 hours a week are definitely employees and should be treated as such. However I'd like to throw in my own personal anecdote. I am a full time software engineer but I am signed up as a Postmates bike deliveryperson on the side. I do…

Isn't that just part-time employment, then?

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#74

Post by bkmartin »

bkmartin wrote: post #71
aceperry wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely! Glad to see that most commenters here see that this gig economy is really bsed on exploitation.

Is it really based on exploitation? Take for instance one of my best friends who lives in the D.C. area. He was just raving to me about how he made of $300 in one night driving for Uber. Now, of course he has to pay for his own gas and wear and tear on his car, but he did not feel exploited. Not saying that every "gig economy" company pays well, but I don't think you can say it is all based on exploitation. I think t…

So, the downvote signifies that someone REALLY disagrees with me? Care to elaborate the downvote? I must say that if you aren't willing to enter into a dialog on an honestly written and non flaming post I'm disappointed in your integrity and maturity, whoever you are.

@frostmathew - isn't downvoting supposed to be used to drop conversations that are trolling in nature? Not simply because you disagree with someone? Isn't this a place for constructive conversation and discourse? That is certainly why I value it so much and come here often to see what intelligent minds have to say about lots of issues. I don't like complaining about it, it just felt like I got trolled via the downvote and while I agree my complaining clutters the conversation, I have no idea who moderates such things.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#75

Post by vinceguidry »

bkmartin wrote: post #71
aceperry wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely! Glad to see that most commenters here see that this gig economy is really bsed on exploitation.

Is it really based on exploitation? Take for instance one of my best friends who lives in the D.C. area. He was just raving to me about how he made of $300 in one night driving for Uber. Now, of course he has to pay for his own gas and wear and tear on his car, but he did not feel exploited. Not saying that every "gig economy" company pays well, but I don't think you can say it is all based on exploitation. I think t…

> Now, of course he has to pay for his own gas and wear and tear on his car, but he did not feel exploited.

Contract law is funny. In a perfect world, anybody should be able to make a contract with anybody else to perform a legal act for them. But the world isn't perfect. You have to take into account that the contract you just made might well be replicated hundreds, thousands, or millions of times, in countless different contexts.

Sex is legal. Forming a contract involving sex is not. Even if nine times out of ten, it's perfectly fine, that would generate huge social costs. It's why gambling is so controversial and tends to be relegated to a select few adult playgrounds that are set up to handle those costs.

Labor laws came into force awhile back to reduce the risks of employment. Before labor laws, if you got hurt on a job, it had the very real potential of ruining your life. Your employer would not pay for your care, you'd be fired, even if it was no fault of your own. And managers were often ruthless about coercing employees into performing dangerous tasks with no safety protocols. Labor laws protect you against yourself, no one should be exposed to some risks even if it means putting more food on the table.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#76

Post by mc32 »

leereeves wrote: post #40

Along with the legal gymnastics regarding independent contractors, this struck me as notable: "If Solominsky had built his own handyman business, he would not be so impacted by the decisions of another company. But all he has of his supposedly independent business—his pages and pages of glowing reviews, his nearly unanimous five-star ratings—is tied up on the TaskRabbit platform." Something to keep in mind as/before…

Do you not think that if these people didn't believe these platforms didn't provide an advantage over being truly independent of the platform they would go solo?

I have my dislike for these lubricating platforms (because eventually they will go vertical --uber with autonomous vehicles, for example) but for the time being they create a marketplace for these contractors (or alternative not-quite-employees)

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#77

Post by murbard2 »

techsupporter wrote: post #4

The rules, such as they are, seem fairly straightforward. If, in the case of outfits like Handy and Uber and Instacart, the "employer" is laying down rules, requiring certain performance, setting the price, and enforcing metrics, they are an employer and the person doing the work is an employee who should be treated as such. If, in the case of outfits like Redbeacon, the site is collecting leads and distributing them…

You're correct in your distinction, but you are giving the impression that this is a bad thing.

If some companies like Uber and Instacart can nullify a nefarious law using loopholes, this is a Good Thing.

In general, there are strong reason to believe that regulation which restrict the freedom of contract are harmful, and the result of special interests trying to secure a competitive advantage through legislative means.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#78

Post by gwy »

will_brown wrote: post #60
tptacek wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is likely due to the IRS being prohibited from issuing rules and regulations, and as a result in the words of the IRS, "Previously issued guidance may not reflect current case law, statutory changes, or changes in workplace situations." However, you are correct that this factor, under FL case law, though weighted more heavily is not determinative by any means. I've read this 3 times and I don't really understand…

>The IRS contractor rules are the most important employee classification rules with any bearing on this discussion, and they are both clear and very well-understood by employers. You can not say IRS rules are more important than State case law for purposes of classification or this discussion. Such a statement shows the law is anything but clear. Federal/State classifications are an independent determination and requ…

Just to add some actual cases, there was the $6.5 million settlement by Lowe’s Home Centers as well as a FedEx Ground case, where the idea of "1099ing an LLC" did not protect them.

"Recently, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit and the Kansas Supreme Court both held that FedEx Ground had misclassified employees as independent contractors who were operating as business entities or subcontracted additional routes to other drivers."

http://independentcontractorcompliance.com/2015/01/14/four-l...

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#79

Post by bkmartin »

vinceguidry wrote: post #75
bkmartin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really based on exploitation? Take for instance one of my best friends who lives in the D.C. area. He was just raving to me about how he made of $300 in one night driving for Uber. Now, of course he has to pay for his own gas and wear and tear on his car, but he did not feel exploited. Not saying that every "gig economy" company pays well, but I don't think you can say it is all based on exploitation. I think t…

> Now, of course he has to pay for his own gas and wear and tear on his car, but he did not feel exploited. Contract law is funny. In a perfect world, anybody should be able to make a contract with anybody else to perform a legal act for them. But the world isn't perfect. You have to take into account that the contract you just made might well be replicated hundreds, thousands, or millions of times, in countless diff…

But does that really apply in the case of Uber? Honest question. You are agreeing to perform a task, in this case, driving an individual from point A to point B for a set $ amount. You can see that dollar amount and decide to take it or not, correct? So, if you get injured in a car accident you are covered by your or the other driver's insurance. If this is a side job, not your full time work then you could have health insurance on top of that. So where exactly is the problem here? Now, this isn't speaking to the so called "gig economy" in general because I think that each company is responsible for its own rules and actions when it comes to labor. If one company fails to pay an honest wage and exploits its workers, that doesn't incriminate every company that creates a contract platform.

Re: The Gig Economy Is Being Sued to Death

#80

Post by frostmatthew »

bkmartin wrote: post #74
bkmartin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really based on exploitation? Take for instance one of my best friends who lives in the D.C. area. He was just raving to me about how he made of $300 in one night driving for Uber. Now, of course he has to pay for his own gas and wear and tear on his car, but he did not feel exploited. Not saying that every "gig economy" company pays well, but I don't think you can say it is all based on exploitation. I think t…

So, the downvote signifies that someone REALLY disagrees with me? Care to elaborate the downvote? I must say that if you aren't willing to enter into a dialog on an honestly written and non flaming post I'm disappointed in your integrity and maturity, whoever you are. @frostmathew - isn't downvoting supposed to be used to drop conversations that are trolling in nature? Not simply because you disagree with someone? Is…

I didn't downvote, but I would suggest reading Hacker News Guidelines[1], specifically: Resist commenting about being downvoted. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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