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First NetHack bot ascension

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Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#71

Post by Natsu »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #39
jballanc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one's actually not that hard to explain. Shirts can be worn under your armor, and these are the only two kinds of shirts. Normally, a shirt adds nothing to your armor class, but it can be enchanted (up to +7 safely), so it's nice to have one if you can find one. The problem with the Hawaiian shirt is that shop keepers will assume you're a tourist, and charge you extra.

> The problem with the Hawaiian shirt is that shop keepers will assume you're a tourist, and charge you extra. Absolutely cannot tell if you're fucking with me, or if this is an actual game mechanic - and if so, why this shirt would be desirable.

He's not kidding, actually. This is why enchanted t-shirts are preferred for a little extra AC under your normal armor.

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#72

Post by Natsu »

mklim wrote: post #30
samspot wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of advanced techniques for identifying things. If you have a pink potion you can throw it at a monster, and based on the monster's reaction you might now know what pink potions are. Most of this stuff would be hard to learn on your own though.

You can also identify rings by dropping them down wells—different rings fall down (or don't fall down) the wells in different ways—and identify wands by writing on the ground with them. Definitely hard to pick up any of that on your own, though.

You can also GET rings from sinks... if you know how.

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#73

Post by Natsu »

saulrh wrote: post #18
jedberg wrote: post #7

At the risk of losing my nerd card, I've never played Nethack. I read the reddit thread, and while it was in English, it made not a lick of sense to me. Now I know how non-engineers feel sometimes. :) BTW, can someone tell me why this is such an amazing accomplishment? I know Nethack is very old, so is this a case of a complex problem space or just no one has tried before?

There are two major things that can make AI difficult: having too many options to choose from, and having difficulty figuring out which options are better. NetHack is nasty in both of these dimensions. • Many options are available: - Many different actions available at any given time (move, attack with a weapon, Zap using a wand, Quaff a potion, Wear a different piece of armor or equipment, Wield a different weapon,…

To be fair, there's not (that) much worry over which armor to use, it's more a matter of knowing what is and isn't enchanted and to what degree. There's a pretty much set kit for each class that you want to work towards.

My neutral human wizards always have either Frostbane or Grayswandir (Magicbane as backup/for MR), robes, silver dragon scale mail, boots of speed, enchanted T-shirt, gloves of dex, etc.

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#74

Post by otakucode »

jere wrote: post #21

If you find this interesting, take note that people were writing bots to beat Rogue over 30 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_(video_game)#Automated_pl...

The roguelike Angband has had a bot built into it for at least 20 years... I don't know that it has ever actually beat the game, though. I used to run it as a screensaver on, I think, Windows 95. Was interesting to watch, but it wasn't a terribly clever bot.

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#75

Post by chongli »

fooqux wrote: post #55
jsheard wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NetHacks DevTeam are so famous for their special cases that the TVTropes article for obscure special cases was named after them. Here's the subarticle for NetHack examples: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TheDevTeamThinksOfEver...

I lost it at this entry: > Additionally, throwing a cockatrice corpse up ( Some of these I knew, most I did not. Thanks for sharing that.

Another fun one is to fall down the stairs while wielding a cockatrice corpse in your gloved hand. Or getting engulfed by a purple worm and subsequently regurgitated onto a cockatrice corpse laying on the ground, petrifying you.

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#76

Post by chongli »

Natsu wrote: post #73
saulrh wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two major things that can make AI difficult: having too many options to choose from, and having difficulty figuring out which options are better. NetHack is nasty in both of these dimensions. • Many options are available: - Many different actions available at any given time (move, attack with a weapon, Zap using a wand, Quaff a potion, Wear a different piece of armor or equipment, Wield a different weapon,…

To be fair, there's not (that) much worry over which armor to use, it's more a matter of knowing what is and isn't enchanted and to what degree. There's a pretty much set kit for each class that you want to work towards. My neutral human wizards always have either Frostbane or Grayswandir (Magicbane as backup/for MR), robes, silver dragon scale mail, boots of speed, enchanted T-shirt, gloves of dex, etc.

Of course, that's all the stuff you have after the hard part is over. Getting there and surviving the early part of the game is where all the complexity and diversity comes in.

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#77

Post by chongli »

pmontra wrote: post #6
kbenson wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because to the the person familiar enough with NetHack to have played it but never immersed themselves in the community, ascension seems hard . A speedrun is one thing, doing it on a game many can't even win is another thing entirely.

I add to the point: doing it on a game many can't even make half way through.

To be fair, the second half of the game is so easy it's almost trivial. The hard part of the game is getting half-way.

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#78

Post by chongli »

samspot wrote: post #48
guelo wrote: post #29

One of the difficulties for a human playing Nethack is remembering all the potions and amulets and wands and scrolls and rings and monsters and their effects and many, many, many combinations. In a way a bot should have an easier time since it has basically unlimited memory.

True, also most player deaths are due to obvious mistakes - YASD (Yet Another Stupid Death), mistakes that the bot will only ever make once and then be programmed to avoid.

Yes and bots are capable of using techniques that are far too onerous for humans to pull off such as retracing your own steps perfectly whenever the need to backtrack arises. Humans invariably make mistakes while doing this and wander into traps and die.

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#79

Post by alasdair_ »

digi_owl wrote: post #53
schoen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably D&D with a human dungeon master would allow more possible actions, in the sense that NetHack only allows (a)pply, (C)all, (d)rop, (e)at, (E)ngrave, (f)ire, (P)ut on, (q)uaff, (Q)uiver, (r)ead, (t)hrow, (w)ield, (W)ear, (z)ap, #dip, #invoke, #name, #offer, and #rub actions with specific items in your main inventory (and most of those actions won't be applicable to most items most of the time). A human DM migh…

Then again, human DMs can also be outwitted by careful specification of actions. Like how someone managed to win the original Tomb of Horrors.

Was that module ever won by the first groups to encounter it?

Re: First NetHack bot ascension

#80

Post by alasdair_ »

digi_owl wrote: post #53
schoen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably D&D with a human dungeon master would allow more possible actions, in the sense that NetHack only allows (a)pply, (C)all, (d)rop, (e)at, (E)ngrave, (f)ire, (P)ut on, (q)uaff, (Q)uiver, (r)ead, (t)hrow, (w)ield, (W)ear, (z)ap, #dip, #invoke, #name, #offer, and #rub actions with specific items in your main inventory (and most of those actions won't be applicable to most items most of the time). A human DM migh…

Then again, human DMs can also be outwitted by careful specification of actions. Like how someone managed to win the original Tomb of Horrors.

Was that module ever won by the first groups to encounter it?
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