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A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

c2.com

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Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#71
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have some fundamental disagreements with "first impressions are important" when it comes to public software. First impressions are unreliable when it comes to understanding the value and potential of something that's in development. The whole wiki spirit is to release early, adapt to feedback, and encourage collaboration. When you say "it doesn't work" and "the innovation behind it is all for naught," I feel somewh…

That the rebuilt C2 wiki doesn't work is a fact; the problems are, unfortunately, so obvious and so serious that the first impression is uncommonly bad, there is no need to look further. The "value" of the old site is lost, the "potential" for improvement doesn't matter and doesn't exist, the "innovation" is a failed experiment that shouldn't have been "released early". I just don't understand this leniency towards a…

Is it the whole concept of a federated wiki that you think is a "bad idea"?

When you say that the "'potential' for improvement doesn't matter," what exactly do you mean?

Doesn't matter to whom? For what reason?

I am lenient and curious about most attempts at innovation in the field of web-based communication and collaboration.

Personally speaking, I like Ward Cunningham; I admire his previous work; I am interested in federation; and I generally encourage open source development of interesting communication tools.

When you say "the 'innovation' is a failed experiment," I read that as a claim that hopefully—and with effort—will turn out to be mistaken.

If you think there is nothing to learn from it, that's up to you.

Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#72
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you said applies to humans using normal web browsers as well. And yet people still fill pages with JS, and browsers still execute it, and people still see stuff.

With one minor difference: Humans at least have full-blown human intelligence which they can use to heuristically determine when the execution is "complete". Not that that makes all that much more sense ...

I doubt Google is worried about unfairly weighting pages it indexes with Javascript that takes so long to run, hence the cutoff. It's more a question of where to place the cutoff than whether to have one at all, which is absurd.

Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#73

Wow, that's some bad usability there. Talk about chasing the shiny over form and function. Javascript pages are the 'Flash site' of the 2010s and I can't wait until it's similarly consigned to its rightful place in the dustbin of history. All they do is waste my CPU time and memory, force me to enable a scripting language that is riddled with vulnerabilities just to see some content, and run more slowly than real pag…

just to see some content Moreover, static content. There's a big difference between using JS to do something interactive and useful which couldn't be done before (e.g. various games, calculators, and visualisations get this part right), and using it to incompletely emulate basic functionality that web browsers already have. the 'Flash site' of the 2010s I like that analogy - stuffing the whole site into Flash was a h…

It's not static. It's an editable wiki.

Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#75

Wow, that's some bad usability there. Talk about chasing the shiny over form and function. Javascript pages are the 'Flash site' of the 2010s and I can't wait until it's similarly consigned to its rightful place in the dustbin of history. All they do is waste my CPU time and memory, force me to enable a scripting language that is riddled with vulnerabilities just to see some content, and run more slowly than real pag…

[deleted]

Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#76
post #4

I believe the wiki is among the most amazing things to come out of the web (and think Cunningham is a genius for inventing it, or discovering it, or whatever process made it happen), and I can't count the number of times I've lost an hour or two spelunking into the C2 wiki. But, I'm having a hard time making sense of this UI. The panels popping up seemingly infinitely into the right side of the screen (every click ma…

I'm both sad and enjoyed by the move. I'm attached to the deceiptively poor old wiki, because it contrasts with the great content quality. At the same time, they're migrating toward something off the map of current technologies, and so the spirit of the first wikiwikiweb is still alive. ps: if someone has an archive / mirror of c2.com, I'll be happy to leech.

It's all still there: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki

I assume they'll move it over to the Federated wiki at some point, but you can still view everything on the old wiki.

Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#77
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the (admittedly somewhat long) transcription of a talk I use to introduce people to the idea: http://hapgood.us/2014/11/06/federated-education-new-directi... The elevator pitch for tech-minded people is that wikis are to SVN as federated wikis are to git. Instead of a shared wiki that people modify, each user has their own wiki which consists of both pages they've made or forked, so information propagates bac…

So, the bar for contributing to the wiki has been raised from "has access to a computer" to "has access, knowledge, and resources to run a wiki server"? I hope one or more WaaS (wiki as a service) providers will emerge where a user account == a fed wiki node.

That's already how it works. You could run your own node and share information back and forth with other nodes, or you could use an account on an existing node. This is clearly the case: if you go to the C2 Federated Wiki, you'll note the Login button.

Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#78
post #74

The page claims that the new wiki is written with a distributed database but from what I can tell it just writes pages to the file system? https://github.com/fedwiki/wiki-node-server/blob/master/lib/... Am I missing something?

He doesn't mean that each server uses a distributed database to store its documents.

The wiki is federated, much like Usenet is through the network of NNTP servers. For more info, see Cunningham's documents "On Federating Wiki" [0] and "Federation Details" [1].

This is distributed in the sense that Git is a distributed source control system.

[0]: https://github.com/WardCunningham/Smallest-Federated-Wiki/wi...

[1]: https://github.com/WardCunningham/Smallest-Federated-Wiki/wi...

Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#79
post #78
post #74

The page claims that the new wiki is written with a distributed database but from what I can tell it just writes pages to the file system? https://github.com/fedwiki/wiki-node-server/blob/master/lib/... Am I missing something?

He doesn't mean that each server uses a distributed database to store its documents. The wiki is federated, much like Usenet is through the network of NNTP servers. For more info, see Cunningham's documents "On Federating Wiki" [0] and "Federation Details" [1]. This is distributed in the sense that Git is a distributed source control system. [0]: https://github.com/WardCunningham/Smallest-Federated-Wiki/wi... [1]: ht…

Cool, thanks!

Re: A complete rewrite of wiki as a single page application

#80
post #20

The original wiki was a wonderful community, alive in that ineffable way that very few online communities are, totally free and public. I wrote a blog post [0] about how strongly it influenced me as a person and the gratitude I feel for it. Ward Cunningham is a respected and intelligent software designer who works on open projects for the public good. The immediate cynicism and dismissal I've seen of his new project…

Take a look at a movie from the 1990s, where a character pulls up say a news article on the internet. Just text and some pictures. So usable! The web peaked in 1998, when everything was plain HTML but you could Google-search it, and everything since then has been the moral progeny of the tag. So when a perfectly usable site like C2 embraces the bankruptcy of the Web 2.0 era, I think people are justified in expressing their frustration.
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