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Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

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Re: Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

#71
post #11

I hope Perl 6 has better runtime speed and memory efficiency because those are the only downsides of Perl 5. However I seriously doubt that will be the case. Perl 6 will most likely be more bloated and slow, but I very much hope that I'm wrong. Just for reference my company's software is all built with Perl 5 and runs great. Most of the execution time is within the database calls so there is no impact from using Perl…

When did Python become faster than Perl 5?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the last realistic comparisons I did had Perl running quite a bit faster. For example comparing ack to grin, which are very similar projects in Perl and Python respectively...at the time, admittedly several years ago, ack was an order of magnitude faster than grin. I also wrote a few log parsers in both Perl and Python (at a time when I was working in a Python shop, so they preferred everything be done in Python). The Perl parsers were much faster than the Python variant, for exactly the same work (again, an order of magnitude difference). Perhaps this is just an example of Perl's domain of expertise...processing text is a big part of its origin story, and has always been a big part of what people use it for. Or, perhaps Python has made remarkable performance improvements in those intervening years. I haven't worked with Python in that time, so haven't followed development. Perl 5 has gotten faster in that time, too, though, so I'd be surprised if Python is dramatically faster for the same real world tasks.

Re: Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

#72
post #48

I got my first job in 2000 because I knew Perl. Perl 6 was coming. Fast forward .. 15 years have passed.. Please stop insulting us ...

Why is this insulting to you? Things happen at their natural pace :-). I got my first job knowing a bit of PHP. It's still not a pretty language, but I don't find that insulting.

Re: Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

#75

I'm a Perl 6 core developer (compiler, test suite, docs, design documents, infrastructure). Ask me anything :-)

Forgive me for this, but why is it still called Perl 6?

I've been a professional Perl developer for a long time, and I've followed Perl 6 since the first announcements. There is some impressive and really interesting work going on there, but from my perspective it seems to be a new language rather than a new version of Perl. I fully support the development of Perl 6, but I really wish the name would change to something that doesn't involve Perl.

It seems like the usage of the name "Perl" has actually done a fair amount of damage to the Perl 5 language, and the Perl community. Non-Perl programmers don't understand what is happening. To them, Perl 6 is just the next version of Perl, and the long wait for Perl 6 is a sign of problems within the Perl community. To many of them when Perl 6 comes out it will be the obvious choice to use for new projects, since the name implies it is the new version, even though the reality is that Perl 5 will likely be the correct choice for a large number of new projects for many years to come.

Perl has become a punching bag by the uninformed who speak about it as a dying, irrelevant, read-only language. Perl 6 carrying the Perl name has helped reinforce those views, allowing them to incorrectly speak of the lack of new versions, the future versions breaking backwards compatibility, and many of the changes being a strong admission that something was very wrong with Perl 5. When Perl 6 is released there will be a lot of confusion and the common belief will become that Perl 5 is even more irrelevant.

So, why not stop using the name "Perl" and call it something different? Wouldn't it be better for everyone if Perl 6 was regarded as a new and separate language?

Re: Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

#76
post #7

If you want to have an idea of what makes Perl 6 compelling, check these slides that were submitted a few days ago, "Perl 6 for Mere Mortals" (which is also another talk at FOSDEM): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8953368 I hate to repeat a comment of mine, but for the sake of emphasizing just how different Perl 6 is, here's a version of Fibonacci in Perl 6: subset NonNegativeInt of Int where * >= 0; proto fib (…

Why would I learn this rather than Haskell?

> Why would I learn this rather than Haskell?

You wouldn't.

That is to say: You might learn Haskell if you want do write 100% functional code, and Perl 6 if you want to write imperative/procedural/OO code with functional idioms mixed in here and there (in places where that facilitates a more elegant approach).

I.e. the two languages are not really competing in the same category.

Even though Perl 6 has first-class code objects, closure semantics, basic pattern-matching, lazy lists, immutable data types, and so on, a lot of the syntax and default behaviors are geared towards stateful programming styles, which - combined with the lack of static typing - means that strictly sticking to functional programming in Perl 6 will be awkward and you'd be better off using a dedicated functional language if that's what you want.

Re: Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

#77

I'm a Perl 6 core developer (compiler, test suite, docs, design documents, infrastructure). Ask me anything :-)

Some of the presentations I've seen make it look like MoarVM does some kind of AST specialisation before it gets to the JIT. Is there any documentation of how that works?

Re: Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

#78

I'm a Perl 6 core developer (compiler, test suite, docs, design documents, infrastructure). Ask me anything :-)

Looking at the release as a whole, I'd be fascinated to hear what features have taken the most time and effort? What turned out to be much harder than expected?

One big challenge is the sweet spot between flexibility and optimizability. Perl 6 is designed for extensibility, and yet we know at compile time where a given subroutine will dispatch to.

Getting the right trade-offs there was no easy task.

Another challenge was how to make the type system and built-in types so that stuff works intuitively for a Perl programmer, and still has sane rules in the type system.

Finally a thing that's surprisingly tricky is precompilation. You need to serialize types and objects, and then another compilation unit comes, and needs to modify something, so it claims ownership over a piece of serialized data or code. There are way too many nasty corner cases in that area.

Re: Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

#79
post #7

If you want to have an idea of what makes Perl 6 compelling, check these slides that were submitted a few days ago, "Perl 6 for Mere Mortals" (which is also another talk at FOSDEM): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8953368 I hate to repeat a comment of mine, but for the sake of emphasizing just how different Perl 6 is, here's a version of Fibonacci in Perl 6: subset NonNegativeInt of Int where * >= 0; proto fib (…

Thanks for the presentations. Have you seen any performance benchmarks? It would also be good to see Lua included in the language comparisons.

In his talk, Larry specifically said something like "Please understand that we may or may not be comparable to Perl5 in some benchmarks, and that speed is something we're working on. We'll get there, and it's good enough already for many tasks."

Re: Perl 6 developers will attempt to make a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015

#80

I'm a Perl 6 core developer (compiler, test suite, docs, design documents, infrastructure). Ask me anything :-)

Forgive me for this, but why is it still called Perl 6? I've been a professional Perl developer for a long time, and I've followed Perl 6 since the first announcements. There is some impressive and really interesting work going on there, but from my perspective it seems to be a new language rather than a new version of Perl. I fully support the development of Perl 6, but I really wish the name would change to somethi…

> I've been a professional Perl developer for a long time, and I've followed Perl 6 since the first announcements. There is some impressive and really interesting work going on there, but from my perspective it seems to be a new language rather than a new version of Perl.

It's both, really. If you use it (and after a while of getting used it), it just feels like perl.

> I fully support the development of Perl 6, but I really wish the name would change to something that doesn't involve Perl.

Well, in retrospect, it might have been a good idea to name it something else entirely. But that's too late now, and nobody has been able to come up with a good new name anyway. And the "Perl" brand is still very strong, so we are loath to give it up.

Finally, Perl 5 has many unsolved problems that will hinder its evolution in the upcoming decades. Once Perl 6 has become as fast and mature as Perl 5 is now, we want to provide the future that's closed to Perl 5.

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