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Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

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Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#71

Does anybody know if a gamma-ray burst is preceded by an increased neutrino flux? I've heard that neutrinos will actually arrive at earth several hours before the light from a supernova. When the core of a star collapses, the light is physically prevented from coming outwards until the collapse is complete. Since the neutrinos move right through the gas, they are emitted as soon as the explosion occurs. Would detecti…

Neutrino detection in correlation with GRBs is problematic at best, because the events tend to be so far away and neutrino emissions are not expected to be focused into cones the same way EM and charged particles are, by virtue of not interacting with electromagnetic processes they'll be emitted in all directions. (There is some hypothetical neutrino/antineutrino emission within the GRB cone, but it's likely a weak signal and hasn't been measured in practice.)

We expect GRB neutrino flux to weaken far below the detection threshold by the time it gets here. Across these vast distances, neutrinos should also lag behind photons because they're not technically as fast as light.

The other question is what would we do with that advance warning if it existed? We can't do anything about the fact that our atmosphere is going to absorb these gamma rays, and chances are the event wouldn't be energetic enough to kill us directly as we're walking around so there is no point in taking cover either. The damage to our ecosystem is going to be what kills us, not radiation exposure.

Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#72
post #66
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not. Implicitly, the Fermi paradox looks at life in our own galaxy, which has apparently been quite lucky overall cosmologically. Many galaxies out there are hostile to life (GRBs are just one factor, I would argue that being a metal-poor galaxy with no active star formation is an even worse problem for life), but that doesn't have any bearing on life in our own galaxy - of which we have a sample size of one…

"Depleting the ozone layer isn't enough." Unfortunately mixing is good enough that the increased UV will sterilize everything that does photosynthesis for quite awhile, including in the oceans. So yeah its enough. One interesting part little discussed is that in typical physics fashion, there's many orders of magnitude from weakest (barely detectable, about once a day) to kills everything on the surface not just ozon…

A lot of these civilization cataclysms are explainable as extended droughts or desertification processes though.

Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#73
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not. Life will find a way! > The bacterium Deinococcus radiodurans is the best known extremophile among the few organisms that can survive extremely high exposures to desiccation and ionizing radiation, which shatter its genome into hundreds of short DNA fragments2, 3, 4, 5. Remarkably, these fragments are readily reassembled into a functional 3.28-megabase genome. Here we describe the relevant two-stage DNA…

It's tough to imagine a similar process in a complex lifeform. So it could well be the great filter. Evolution doesn't work well with things that happen rarely over geological timescales. This is one reason why life on earth is very sensitive to climate change, even although the climate has gone through many major changes in the past.

How about a Tardigrade - not exactly a complex lifeform but a few steps up from a bacterium. I wonder if these creatures could survive this type of event? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

"Tardigrades can survive in extreme environments. For example, they can withstand temperatures from just above absolute zero to well above the boiling point of water, pressures about six times greater than those found in the deepest ocean trenches, ionizing radiation at doses hundreds of times higher than the lethal dose for a human, and the vacuum of outer space. They can go without food or water for more than 10 years, drying out to the point where they are 3% or less water, only to rehydrate, forage, and reproduce."

Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#74
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, but on a side note: If you actually had the technology to accelerate to a speed close to light, time dilation might actually allow you to make an intergalactic journey as long as you were okay with leaving behind your home forever... Since a few years for you might be tens of millions of years elsewhere. There is also little matter between galaxies, so the hyper velocity particles problem would be less severe.…

The issue with Fermi's Paradox is the fact that it's not a paradox at all. It relies on assumptions and presumptions that are now dated (we have explanations for). For starters, let's begin with the first point it makes; If there are a bunch of civilizations out there, why haven't we heard them yet? That's the wrong question. It makes an incorrect presumption; Why should we have heard them? Do you think a highly adva…

That's the wrong question. It makes an incorrect presumption; Why should we have heard them? Do you think a highly advanced civilization is going to be using something as archaic as "radio signals" to communicate across vast interstellar distances? Due to the inverse square law, it's incredibly inefficient, laughably so. It would be like trying to use smoke signals to communicate across oceans. A beam of light would be more efficient. But the beam would be instant and you could never "listen in" unless you were physically at the location of the target.

A "beam of light" is governed by the inverse-square law every bit as much as radio signals are, both being propagating electromagnetic waves. It might be "laughably inefficient" (compared to what, though?), but it seems to be what we're stuck with. "Perhaps advanced civilisations use magic to communicate", is what you're basically suggesting. Well, maybe they do. Ultimately, we can only search for ETIs with the physics we actually know.

So, you're right to say that Fermi's "paradox" (always a bit of a misnomer) doesn't prove the nonexistence of ETIs, but you can't wave away fundamental physics because it gives an uncomfortable answer, either.

I also wanted to note in passing that it's a bit funny to obsess about efficiency and then throw out a statement like "maybe they communicate with gravitational waves". The state of the art gravitational wave detectors are targeted at finding signals generated by the merging of pairs of supermassive black holes at cosmological distances, and possibly neutron star or black hole mergers at galactic ones. If a civilisation is capable of smashing black holes together to send signals out a few megaparsecs, I would submit that efficiency is the very last of their considerations. Gravity is much, much weaker than electromagnetism.

Indeed, there are a lot of reasons to think that radiofrequency communication would be preferred. The galaxy is largely transparent to radiation at the hydrogen hyperfine transition at 21cm, a very useful way to cut through the crap and dust of the interstellar medium. By contrast, at optical frequencies the extinction from our environs to the galactic centre is about thirty-five magnitudes, roughly a loss of 10^14 in signal power. Radio receivers are relatively inexpensive and cheap to make and operate. The Arecibo dish itself could communicate with a similar setup thousands of parsecs away. Probably more now, after the receiver upgrades from a few years back.

But you're right that we shouldn't focus on radio communication with ETIs to the exclusion of everything else. Some folks have been discussing "optical SETI", looking for laser/maser signals whilst piggybacking on other observations. The SETI folks aren't stupid. But they're not well-funded, either, and they do what they can.

They're not like radio waves where you can listen in. That's actually the very reason why they're so inefficient, they're broadcast omnidirectional and that takes a lot of power - wasted power.

Radio dishes are not in any sense omnidirectional. They have a beam pattern which dictates the sensitivity of the instrument as a function of distance off-axis. You're right that broadcasting an omnidirectional signal would be a tremendous waste of power, which is why no one does that when sending signals over great distances.

Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#75

If the Universe is too dangerous for life to exist elsewhere, what are the chances that it's not too dangerous to exist here? Not very high. Either there is an abundance of life out there, or we are most likely just experiencing a brief period of lucky safety in a tiny corner of the Universe.

Or life is rare and can be found here and there.

I don't get it why so many people either want life to be basically on every second star or not exist outside Earth at all.

Let's just accept that Fermi and all others hugely overestimated the chances and roll with it, will be far more productive imo.

So with the GRBs in mind, we can safely narrow livable space to outskirts of Milky Way and focus our search there.

Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#76
post #71

Does anybody know if a gamma-ray burst is preceded by an increased neutrino flux? I've heard that neutrinos will actually arrive at earth several hours before the light from a supernova. When the core of a star collapses, the light is physically prevented from coming outwards until the collapse is complete. Since the neutrinos move right through the gas, they are emitted as soon as the explosion occurs. Would detecti…

Neutrino detection in correlation with GRBs is problematic at best, because the events tend to be so far away and neutrino emissions are not expected to be focused into cones the same way EM and charged particles are, by virtue of not interacting with electromagnetic processes they'll be emitted in all directions. (There is some hypothetical neutrino/antineutrino emission within the GRB cone, but it's likely a weak s…

now, nothing. In future, possibly raise some sort of (EM) shield? Of course nothing to for us/our kids, but I am sure within few millenia this would be perfectly feasible (at least my imagination wishing so :)

Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#77

Let's assume this happened tomorrow, and it took another 500 million for life to evolve to what we would consider intelligent. Would anything of our civilisation be left? What would be the best way to leave a record that we existed?

We could launch 10,000 time capsules into space on trajectories that bring one of them back to Earth every 50,000 years or so. They would have to be designed in a way that makes re-entry spectacularly visible so they would be noticed and it would be possible to track them down. Not perfect, but at least there is some chance that one would arrive while an intelligent species is thriving.

Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#79

If the Universe is too dangerous for life to exist elsewhere, what are the chances that it's not too dangerous to exist here? Not very high. Either there is an abundance of life out there, or we are most likely just experiencing a brief period of lucky safety in a tiny corner of the Universe.

Or life is rare and can be found here and there. I don't get it why so many people either want life to be basically on every second star or not exist outside Earth at all. Let's just accept that Fermi and all others hugely overestimated the chances and roll with it, will be far more productive imo. So with the GRBs in mind, we can safely narrow livable space to outskirts of Milky Way and focus our search there.

I think it's generally because the balance point isn't a stable equillibrium. There's no force that encourages balance - it would have to be serendipitous. That's unlike the extremes, where a thriving interstellar civilization likely leads to mass colonization or that life is hard and typically goes extinct before then.

The time scales in these sorts of estimates are enormous, often tens or hundreds of times the span we needed to rise up. So if we even have an inkling to be expansionary (and we do), and aliens are like us in wanting to thrive comfortably (with enough space per unit being), then it's likely they too would have at least a mild drive to expand. Over mnay millions of years, even a very mild push out would fill a galaxy.

Re: Gamma-ray bursts are a threat to life

#80
post #19

Is the gamma-ray burst a spherical field, or is it a narrow, directed cone? If the latter, I wonder how the burst spreads/diffuses as it travels and what sort of equation governs the energy flux with respect to distance and initial conditions.

I think there are multiple types of GRBs and some can be spherical. Two that I have read about are neutron stars colliding and large solar mass > 100 exploding and leaving no remnant. I've read that these types of bursts can blow the atmosphere off of a planet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypernova
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