Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools • Hacker News Board

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#71

Post by hyp0 » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

tessierashpool wrote: post #70

stevenspasbo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you show a wolf tons and tons of affection, like it was a dog, it thinks you're trying to kiss its ass and take a subordinate position to it. I'm curious, what behaviors did you change? Did you have to be conscious of how much you pet it?

Yeah, you can't pet it as much as you would with a dog. Instead, when you first come home, you put your hand out, just a bit above its nose, so the dog/wolf can touch your hand with its nose. It's this very peaceful and utterly simple ritual whereby the dog/wolf acknowledges that you're in charge. When my dad and I started doing this, the dog/wolf calmed down incredibly. Pretty sure he had thought that he was in char…

There was a fad a while back, less popular now, that you need to assert dominance, in raising all dogs. Sounds like it's been nuanced to wolf-like dogs.

At least the study shows a genetic behavioural difference between dogs and wolves.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#72

Post by eric_h » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

jussij wrote: post #42

> Only in this case, the humans were the tools, and the dogs the tool-users. And this is exactly why breeds like Chihuahua, Poodles and Labradoodles have done so well. These types of dogs living in a Darwinist world, have no right to survive, but thanks to their human relationships they are thriving. The big question, is this the dog wagging the tail or the tail wagging the human?

Those breeds did not spring into existence from Darwinian evolution. They came about due to selective breeding by humans. Not only would they not survive without human intervention, they wouldn't exist in the first place.

(And standard poodles are actually very intelligent/capable, it's the teacup sized ones that are worthless).

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#73

Post by tonyarkles » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 9:59 PM UTC

johnloeber wrote: post #4

Huh, interesting. This makes me think about domestication of animals: it's not just about us training or imposing our will on animals, but it's also about animals understanding that they can use us as tools, as the article puts it. I say this in jest, but it sort of makes you wonder about who is using whom. Oftentimes, I notice how pets (esp. cats[0]) are looked after 24/7 by their owners, groomed, given food, shelte…

I do agility training with my dog (hoops, ramps, tunnels, etc) because it's fun for both of us. We get to go out and do an activity that strengthens our bond, and for me it's a different kind of mental exertion than I get day-to-day.

One of the most fascinating parts of the sport, to me, is how much of the training is "people training" vs "dog training". At the start, there's some pretty simple dog training, e.g. if you walk over the ramp, you get a treat. That quickly turns into teaching the human how to use their body language to steer the running dog; when the dog ends up in the wrong place in the field it's, I'd say 90% of the time, the human's fault.

Anyway, on to the point of this. Me and my dog are getting to pretty good at this, and we're currently focusing on distance work; basically, me being able to run the show from half-way across the field instead of running right next to her. She has me trained so well to get closer to her. If she feels like I'm too far away, she'll steer towards me instead of going straight, and then my natural reaction is to walk towards her to help push her back on course. Unless I'm very very focused on what I'm doing, I'll end up right beside her again, even if we start 30 or 40ft away.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#74

Post by tonyarkles » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

CurtMonash wrote: post #20

Cats communicate with humans a little bit, but much less than dogs do. For example, my cat, known on Twitter as the SOFS (Small Orange Furry Sociopath), has developed a very small "vocabulary" of sounds and actions to communicate with my wife and me. But really, he's not clear and consistent about anything more sophisticated than "Pay attention to me!" or "Stop touching me there!" And there isn't a single word I'm su…

I was not a cat person at all until I met my partner's cat, and even then it took a while. I didn't realize it at the time, but it mostly had to do with me not understanding "cat communication". She's probably chattier than most, but we're at a point now where I can pretty much understand her various sounds and body language to figure out exactly what's wrong (I'm out of dry food, I think it's time for my soft food, my litter box is disgusting, goddamnit it's cold out and I'm not impressed, etc). We do also have the occasional chat here and there too.

But yeah, definitely way less communicative than dogs.

Re: Dogs, but Not Wolves, Use Humans as Tools

#75

Post by tessierashpool » Wed, Jan 21, 2015, 11:23 PM UTC

hyp0 wrote: post #71

tessierashpool wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you can't pet it as much as you would with a dog. Instead, when you first come home, you put your hand out, just a bit above its nose, so the dog/wolf can touch your hand with its nose. It's this very peaceful and utterly simple ritual whereby the dog/wolf acknowledges that you're in charge. When my dad and I started doing this, the dog/wolf calmed down incredibly. Pretty sure he had thought that he was in char…

There was a fad a while back, less popular now, that you need to assert dominance, in raising all dogs. Sounds like it's been nuanced to wolf-like dogs. At least the study shows a genetic behavioural difference between dogs and wolves.

actually a lot of those ideas come from research around wolves which is very very discredited. they overgeneralized from things which were true of wolves in captivity but untrue of wild wolves.

but yes, you do kind of have to have a tougher attitude.

one day we got a new puppy. puppy ran up to the dog/wolf and barked at him, tried to get him to play with her. bit his tail to get his attention. he turned around, grabbed her head in his jaws, and held her head against the floor for at least 30 seconds. then he just walked away.

my suspicion is that domesticated animals have less adrenaline or something. there's some kind of hardwired seriousness in a wolf, where dogs seem a lot more daffy.