Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations • Hacker News Board

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#71

Post by Florin_Andrei » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:13 PM UTC

hyperbovine wrote: post #51

debacle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that anyone against this reunion is doing it because of something utterly trivial and selfish.

When I was in Cuba, a lot of people I talked to were obviously in favor of lifting the embargo, but others expressed misgivings about what it would do to their culture and society. Cuba is an indescribably weird place where almost everybody is (on paper anyways) poor, yet education, health care and the arts flourish. Violent crime is virtually unheard of, say what you will about how they achieve that. They are very p…

> Cuba is an indescribably weird place where almost everybody is (on paper anyways) poor, yet education, health care and the arts flourish. Violent crime is virtually unheard of

I grew up in the Eastern Bloc, I was in college when the revolutions happened. Now I live in the US.

When I describe the life under communists to people who grew up here, I mention, of course, the lack of political freedom, the demagoguery, etc. But then I say things like "OTOH unemployment was zero, health care was free (\), college was free, and everyone was sure to receive a livable pension from the state when they retired." Oh, and there was a decline and clear commercialization of the arts immediately after revolution.

Then everyone gives me odd looks.

It's like they expect a tale of Aragorn vs. Mordor, with clear heroes and villains. It's not like that. Life in the US is clearly better overall, but there are some interesting points to be learned from the ol'country too. Not kicking the destitute to the curb seems the most important.

---

(\) - if you felt the impulse to point out that "free" really means "paid out of your taxes", please be informed that Captain Obvious and his minions are not welcome here. Yes, we get it, ktnxbai.

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#72

Post by Florin_Andrei » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #29

iandanforth wrote: post #7

I've visited Cuba on a Canadian passport. Aside from the beautiful beaches the thing that struck me most was the desperate poverty of people living in shacks outside the 5 star resorts. While I hesitate to predict that this change will be all for the good, I do believe that the poorest in Cuba will benefit significantly from increased trade.

It's the same in India and other countries I've visited. Trade alone won't help. I realize India and Cuba are apples and oranges, but my point is that significant trade doesn't necessarily trickle down to the poorest. That said, I do hope it does help some people in Cuba who have fallen victim to unnecessary stresses caused by the embargo.

> my point is that significant trade doesn't necessarily trickle down to the poorest

Nothing trickles down to the poorest, spontaneously, almost anywhere in the world.

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#73

Post by toomuchtodo » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #47

iandanforth wrote: post #7

I've visited Cuba on a Canadian passport. Aside from the beautiful beaches the thing that struck me most was the desperate poverty of people living in shacks outside the 5 star resorts. While I hesitate to predict that this change will be all for the good, I do believe that the poorest in Cuba will benefit significantly from increased trade.

When you start from such a low base, there is enormous room for growth. The question is what can they export? Cigars? Medical personnel?

> Medical personnel?

Cuba actually has an incredible socialized medicine healthcare system, and the US embargo specifically carves out an exception for cancer pharmaceuticals developed and manufactured there. Its not that far fetched that you would see medical tourism take off from Florida with its vast retiree population.

If I were in the travel business in Florida, I'd start advertising now to get your name out there, and fly to Havana to have a conversation with Raúl Castro about how much yearly revenue you could be bringing in (all in USD I might add). About $39 billion/year is spent in Florida on Medicare; taking only a small piece of that is an incredible proposition for a country the size of Cuba.

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#74

Post by glup » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:16 PM UTC

The title of the Bloomberg article "Cuba’s Half Century of Isolation to End" perpetuates a major misconception for US citizens. Cuba isn't isolated from the rest of the world (in the manner that North Korea is) -- it's just the US and Cuba. The island is fully connected as a tourist destination for Canadians, Latin Americans, and Europeans and they import consumer goods from Korea, China, Vietnam, etc. There are major differences (e.g. the military apparatus has controlling interests in nearly all business ventures, including those with foreign firms) but "isolation" is a pretty inaccurate characterization.

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#75

Post by soperj » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:18 PM UTC

iandanforth wrote: post #7

I've visited Cuba on a Canadian passport. Aside from the beautiful beaches the thing that struck me most was the desperate poverty of people living in shacks outside the 5 star resorts. While I hesitate to predict that this change will be all for the good, I do believe that the poorest in Cuba will benefit significantly from increased trade.

I felt the same way visiting San Francisco, the abject poverty of the people downtown outside $400 a night hotels is just incredible.

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#76

Post by brandon272 » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:19 PM UTC

Vaskerville wrote: post #59

arenaninja wrote: post #15

I hope this doesn't out me as short-sighted, but I'm looking forward to a vacation there in the near future!

Me too. And, more coincidental, I'm moving to Port au Prince in just a couple months!

Out of curiosity, what is taking you there?

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#77

Post by unchocked » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:19 PM UTC

debacle wrote: post #42

tootie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that cigar imports is probably the most utterly trivial and selfish thing to consider in this move.

I find that anyone against this reunion is doing it because of something utterly trivial and selfish.

Your perspective is flawed because you are projecting too logical a world view on the opponents of rapprochement, but from an emotionally conservative perspective it's seen as giving up the fight against evil.

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#78

Post by jfoutz » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

glup wrote: post #65

joezydeco wrote: post #17

The timing seems really clever here. The USA and OPEC flood the market with oil (literally), crashing prices and sending the Ruble into a spiral. Just as Cuba starts to worry about Russian support going forward, the USA swoops in to provide some economic bracing.

This analysis is a little off-- Cuba has received only symbolic support from Russia since the fall of the USSR. However, dynamics in the oil market are significant for Venezuela, their chief ally (and main supplier of energy resources!).

I think it's fair to say tensions between the US and Russia are increasing over the Ukraine. An obvious, and historically effective, Russian intimidation tactic is a military presence in Cuba. Improving relations with Cuba makes that a bit tougher to achieve. I'm not saying this is the reason, just another positive outcome.

There are a ton of good reasons to improve relations, and few reasons not to.

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#79

Post by happyscrappy » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #26

serve_yay wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why this would affect that, as far as I know that part of Cuba is considered to be US soil.

Guantanamo Bay isn't US soil, it's Cuban soil indefinitely leased to the US for the purpose of maintaining a naval base. (The concentration camp is a side benefit, constructed to evade laws against building concentration camps on American soil.)

Indefinitely leased is nitpicking but at least you got to say concentration camp twice.

Re: Cuba and the U.S. will begin to normalize relations

#80

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 7:24 PM UTC

glup wrote: post #74

The title of the Bloomberg article "Cuba’s Half Century of Isolation to End" perpetuates a major misconception for US citizens. Cuba isn't isolated from the rest of the world (in the manner that North Korea is) -- it's just the US and Cuba. The island is fully connected as a tourist destination for Canadians, Latin Americans, and Europeans and they import consumer goods from Korea, China, Vietnam, etc. There are majo…

The retaliatory policy the US has against any entity doing business with Cuba severely limits business engagement with Cuba, since firms that engage in many kinds of business with Cuba risk retaliatory asset seizures if assets come within the jurisdiction of US courts. While foreign trade with Cuba is less constrained by the embargo than direct US trade, it is inaccurate to say that the embargo only affects direct trade between US and Cuba.