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Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

modlabupenn.org

71–80 of 84 posts

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#71

This is such a neat idea, but I wonder if it suffers from vibration problems. Because the blades are mounted on pivots, whenever you've commanding differential pitch, the high angle-of-attack blade will incur more drag and so lag slightly more than the low angle-of-attack blade. Thus the blades won't be exactly opposite each other anymore, creating vibration. Perhaps the blades are spinning so fast this is not a big…

I don't think the force on the rotor would change direction fast enough to cause a vibration. It would be more like a constant push relative to the intended tilt, or a slowly spiraling wobble.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, though.

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#72

This thing is so nimble in the air yet has a fraction of the complexity of a regular helicopter. I wonder if this method will scale up to "full size"?

The complexity of the conventional helicopter method is not only providing control, but also a considerable amount of safety by enabling autogyro capability. This lack of autogyro is already restricting the quadrocopter setup to "let it crash" dimensions and the same well be true for this admittedly very clever duocopter.

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1m square deskspace requirements and fast tooling in software, rather than thousands of pounds and new metal every time you want to change a detail. Injection moulding is only lower cost when you want to buy something that is already mass manufactured or millions of identical things. Up to about 10,000 units, 3d printing is cheaper.

At-home 3d-printing uses shitty materials and has terrible precision. If you don’t want to go all the way up to making expensive metal tooling and doing injection molding, you can sill get much better results from CNCing some material and then using resin casting than using a 3d printer: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/

Wrong, wrong and wrong. I'll start with the last "wrong" first. The third wrong (for your statement which only includes two issues) is for the typical, and ill thought process of technology. That it won't change, and it won't get better. It will, and it's doing so by leaps and bounds. 3d printers are quite literally coming out with new processes and equipment every single day. There have been a number of announcements in just the last few months that make it appear that even using metals for at home printing at an affordable rate may be possible in the next five years. There is such a fast rate of change and innovation, it's a bit silly to think that your comments on bad quality and materials won't change within the next year (if those comments were correct, they're not.)

As to materials, literally, every month, there are new materials coming out. At this point, I can use my desktop reprap to print ceramics, PET, Nylon, ABS (to just name a few), and all sorts of hybrids/specific compounds of these plastics designed for 3d printing. Nylon, PET, ABS are good enough for probably ~90% (very rough guess, sorry) of most of the plastic products in your home, it's probably good enough for most of the products I (and many others want to make).

As to precision, that's also quite wrong. The printers are quite precise. They're not as precise as the $75,000 CNC Mill that will get me .001" accuracy, but the truth is that most people don't even need .01" accuracy. And my printer cost me $500, quite a large cost premium there in terms of accuracy (ignoring the importance of cutting metal at this time).

As to doing CNC at home. Even a quite crappy homemade CNC mill, built on a real "mill"(something like a g0704) (not the laughable (to me) desktop mills that have come out recently, which are glorified dremels using similar methods of driving the axis' as a 3d printer, which you can cut aluminum at atrociously slow rates) is going to cost you at least $3000 (machine tools are expensive, not just because of the actual mill, but all the tool holders, bits, cutters, precision vises, calipers, etc. etc. that you also need to make it useful). So yes, a CNC mill is great for alot of things, but that homemade CNC mill isn't really going to hold .001 accuracy either, unless you spend a lot of time working on it and you really know what you're doing.

I'm not going to continue on with this argument, but it seems like your view of 3d printers and CNC milling is quite naive.

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#74

This is such a neat idea, but I wonder if it suffers from vibration problems. Because the blades are mounted on pivots, whenever you've commanding differential pitch, the high angle-of-attack blade will incur more drag and so lag slightly more than the low angle-of-attack blade. Thus the blades won't be exactly opposite each other anymore, creating vibration. Perhaps the blades are spinning so fast this is not a big…

Vibration only becomes a problem when the scales of the drag/lag and rotational frequency are similar. My gut feeling is that this will only happen when your lift-to-drag ratio is close to 1, so not in any meaningful case.

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At-home 3d-printing uses shitty materials and has terrible precision. If you don’t want to go all the way up to making expensive metal tooling and doing injection molding, you can sill get much better results from CNCing some material and then using resin casting than using a 3d printer: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/

Wrong, wrong and wrong. I'll start with the last "wrong" first. The third wrong (for your statement which only includes two issues) is for the typical, and ill thought process of technology. That it won't change, and it won't get better. It will, and it's doing so by leaps and bounds. 3d printers are quite literally coming out with new processes and equipment every single day. There have been a number of announcement…

My $1500 home CNC will give .001" of an inch of accuracy. You'd be amazed how much errors in the .01s of inches stack up into unusable parts (try doing inlays with wood).

You are quite right that the cost of operation is quite a bit higher though. Bits, collets, spindles, etc really add up. Even with wood, all the tooling is made of solid carbide.

subtractive machining has its benefits though. While printing can make some unattainable shapes, subtractive machining gives a nicer variety of materials, and can be faster.

as to the more mature technology now, CNC definitely has 3D printing beaten, at both scale and precision. Hopefully soon, we'll be able to 3D print carbon fiber parts and then we'll have a real 3d printing boom.

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At-home 3d-printing uses shitty materials and has terrible precision. If you don’t want to go all the way up to making expensive metal tooling and doing injection molding, you can sill get much better results from CNCing some material and then using resin casting than using a 3d printer: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/

Wrong, wrong and wrong. I'll start with the last "wrong" first. The third wrong (for your statement which only includes two issues) is for the typical, and ill thought process of technology. That it won't change, and it won't get better. It will, and it's doing so by leaps and bounds. 3d printers are quite literally coming out with new processes and equipment every single day. There have been a number of announcement…

> Wrong, wrong and wrong. [And then 500 words that has nothing to do with what I said.] I'm not going to continue on with this argument, [...]

I guess we’re done here then.

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#77
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Injection molding is on the order of 10,000x more expensive if you only need a single part. I'm currently on a quest to design highly functional robots that can be made with just a 3D printer and a minimum of external parts - so far only bearings, motors, drive belts, batteries and electronics are the non-printed parts needed. I make everything so that it fits together by interlocking or with minimal use of some coar…

Seems to me that the worst part of 3d printed stuff is "the grain" is there any way to fix that?

Well, parts made in a powder bed printer don't typically have nearly as much grain, if any. I'm a big fan of that style printer in the future, so one solution to the problem is to use those instead.

For typical FDM/FFM printers like the hobby ones you see everywhere, there are chemicals that can be used to smooth the print out.

I use my parts for robot prototypes where the function of the part is more important than cosmetics, so I don't worry about the grain. If I want a nice part though, I can use very fine layers.

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I've had my 3D printer for over 3 years, and ran design and machining for an engineering shop for 7 years, and I have to say I disagree. How do you define "terrible precision"? Is there a fixed scale in which precision goes from "terrible" to "okay" to "very good" to "excellent"? If I'm building a telescope mirror, I guess I just ask the manufacturer for "excellent" precision, and they know what to do? How do y…

First things first, I never suggested that you personally should use any particular fabrication method for any particular purpose. In the chain of ancestor comments to my post, none of them have anything to do with you specifically. With that said, I don’t think you looked at the resource I linked, which has some great advice for using a CNC mill to make high-precision parts via resin casting. Nothing in its advised…

You seemed to suggest that 3D printer is never the ideal way to make something, but of course if I need the part as soon as possible 3D printing usually is.

My long rant about CNC machining was meant to highlight the huge amount of labor involved in machining things. It takes a lot of human skill to write a CNC program (I do expect that to eventually change though) and more labor to set up the machine to get the first part made. In the time it would take me to CNC something I can print a part while I eat a sandwich or run some errands.

Of course 3D prints are slow to produce, but that is counteracted by the fact that it takes less of my involvement to get the parts made. It takes less overall effort to produce a part by print than by machining.

I mentioned metal but the entire story I wrote applies to plastic machining as well - just replace "Campbell Metal" with "Professional Plastics". They're both across from the Fry's off Brokaw.

I totally don't expect most people to have "run into" a time where home 3D printing is best, but you can still do thought experiments. 3D printing is far more accessible to most people than CNC machining is. As home machines get better and we gain more critical mass of users, we will see more designers who take advantage of the stuff that can be made at home. That's what I'm doing with 3D printable robots, and luckily I have a good intersection between people who want to make robots and people who own a 3D printer.

I would say the two key differences between 3D printing and machining is that 3D printing takes zero skill to operate and zero or near-zero labor. Not all home machines have delivered on the ease of use promise of course, but that is an issue with the machines, not the process.

My point is, no other manufacturing technique is well-suited for use at home aside from perhaps laser cutting. The value in printing is of course not the quality of the parts, but the fact that it is a type of manufacturing accessible to consumers. Imagine if Dyson provided printable replacement parts for example, and you can begin to see the value.

Every manufacturing technique has trade offs. A single print takes longer than machining a single part, but with less set-up. Time to first part can often be lower on a 3D printer.

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I've had my 3D printer for over 3 years, and ran design and machining for an engineering shop for 7 years, and I have to say I disagree. How do you define "terrible precision"? Is there a fixed scale in which precision goes from "terrible" to "okay" to "very good" to "excellent"? If I'm building a telescope mirror, I guess I just ask the manufacturer for "excellent" precision, and they know what to do? How do y…

First things first, I never suggested that you personally should use any particular fabrication method for any particular purpose. In the chain of ancestor comments to my post, none of them have anything to do with you specifically. With that said, I don’t think you looked at the resource I linked, which has some great advice for using a CNC mill to make high-precision parts via resin casting. Nothing in its advised…

I should note, I have seen that site before. Looking at your comparison pictures, I have a couple of thoughts:

1) I am very aware that machining and casting makes higher quality parts. My point is that for all mechanisms there comes a point where the quality is "good enough".

2) The printed gears you linked to have abysmal quality. My 3 year old printer has made vastly superior parts. See this thingiverse part, with many high quality print examples from home printers: http://www.thingiverse.com/make:17409

I also used to be of the opinion that CNC machining was so superior as to render 3D printing useless. I looked at those stringy prints and said it would never be useful. But then, I slogged for years making CNC machined parts (see some examples of my parts here: http://www.tlalexander.com/files/portfolio.pdf ) and eventually decided to buy a 3D printer. I make more stuff now than I ever did when I had daily access to a CNC.

But as far as quality - notice how that stringy gearbox you linked to still seems to work? Sure, one is more photogenic, but the goal of a gearbox is to transmit power not win a beauty contents. Meanwhile I have been using a printed gear on my 3D printer's extrusion system for over 2 years with no sign of failure. The application is low speed but medium torque, and I see no wear or signs of weakening. The printed gear satisfied the requirements of the mechanism.

When I think of 3D printing, it reminds me of manufacturing in the 1940's. Parts were clunkier then, like the seat hinge on an old Volkswagen Beetle. But clunky works - often better. Newer techniques might make smaller hinges, but the one from the old beetle still works well. Sometimes higher quality isn't necessary to make something. A designer may choose to make something clunkier so that it can be made at home on a basic printer.

Another example- I use this coat rack and lamp mount every day: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:16485

Re: Underactuated Rotor for Simple Micro Air Vehicles

#80
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got that part, I just didn't get the "informational control problems" comment.

The information is the position of the rotor, pulled from the motor sensors. The control is the pulsing of the motor's torque at the right position to increase lift in a particular area of the rotor's arc. Informational control simply means you are pulling information out of the system to better drive the system itself.

Thank you!
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