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Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

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Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#71

Post by valarauca1 »

I'm very good at Algebraic math. But I don't think an algebraic test will show programming aptitude. While algebraic and calculus analysis are a form of problem solving that works incredibly well. It is by no means the fastest, or most eloquent way of solving a problem. Its just a single tool that a problem solver can use.

The main thing I fall back on is Heron's Problem. The classic algebraic/analytical solution is to find the local minimum of a function. Which works, this method isn't flashy yet completely functional. It requires no insight, just mentally vomiting something you learned in high school/college.

The geometric solution is far simpler, and offers insights into the foundation of trigonometry. Its really so simple and eloquent you feel like an brutish idiot doing a long form analysis.

I offer this because tools are merely tools, and math supplies many tools. You wouldn't hire a finish carpenter just based on his/her ability to swing a sledge hammer would you? I mean s/he will have to swing a hammer, but will it have to be a sledge hammer? Will they have to use a nail gun? Screw driver? I hope they are proficient in all of these tools, and since I'm outsourcing my time to them, I hope they know which tool to use at which time.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#72

Post by TheCoelacanth »

Animats wrote: post #18

The scatter plots don't show that strong a correlation. From the test questions, this isn't an "algebra test". It's a word problem decoding test. That's appropriate to programming, where you have to go from an informal specification of the problem to a formal one.

It's only the middling scores that aren't very predictive. Scores >=80% and <=60% are strongly predictive. Only 4/17 that scored 80% or higher scored lower than a 3 on programming ability. Only 1/13 that scored 60% or lower scored a 3 or higher on programming ability.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#73

Post by mark-r »

engrsrce wrote: post #32

What? Where's the correlation? The data looks like a random scatter plot to me. It reminds me of this Physics report from ages ago... http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~kovar/hall.html

I think you can deduce some correlation just by noting that the upper left and lower right parts of the graphs are relatively empty. Certainly there are statistical tests that would be more concrete. You can see some figures in the bottom right corners, but they're never discussed in the text.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#74

Post by relaytheurgency »

erroneousfunk wrote: post #49
xivzgrev wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is algebra. Take second problem for instance. X + (x + 1) + (x+ 2) = 69. Solve for x.

I had a little bit of a problem with that question as well. A clever student might just divide 69 by three and take that number, as well as the numbers on either side, as the answer. Is that algebra? Is that not algebra? Is that some sort of more nebulous skill that's also correlated with programming? If they actually wanted to correlate ALGEBRA algebra with programming, I also thought they'd have more straight-forwa…

I would say that it requires algebraic thoughts. You are assigning a placeholder for "x" as "that number that would fit in the middle here". To me, that seems algebraic. Especially at this very, very basic level of algebra we are discussing.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#75

Post by bitplanets »

Why do you care about it in the first place? Also what is your definition of good programmer? Just make a function? Make a class? Make a big app?

IMO you don't need to learn too much math before programming to be a good programmer. Basic operations are good enough, if you need more you learn as you go, you'll never know what you need. Lazy learning, like lazy variable loading.

The test you are making are more like problem solving which is closer to what programming is and not math. Of course basic math (+, -, /, *), but what it really matters is knowing what operations to do. The operation itself is the easier part.

A better test would be to make a chose between which approach to take to solve a problem and explain the rational behind. That is what will define a good programmer.

Also what better indicator you want than programming itself? You'll never make a choice based on this.

Also one thing is to figure out how to solve "here are 3 consecutive integers with a sum of 69. What are they?" than solving "here are X consecutive integers with a sum of Y. What are they?". Same in "Adriana’s age is 1/3rd of her dad’s age. If her dad is 36 years old, how old is Adriana?" vs "W’s age is X of Y’s age. If Y is Z years old, how old is W?". The complexity increases a lot.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#76

Post by acscott »

You can correlate most anything with most anything. I'm not saying don't try, just to don't give correlations much credence in and of themselves. Thinking globally, what are the odds a coincidence doesn't happen? And when you exclude outliers, you may be excluding the most profound subjects, just as when you include non-outliers, the subjects may not be able to generalize outside the system of measurement.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#77

Post by rudolf0 »

ludoo wrote: post #63
xivzgrev wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is algebra. Take second problem for instance. X + (x + 1) + (x+ 2) = 69. Solve for x.

Or just recognize that three consecutive numbers mean you divide by three and get the median of the three numbers. So 69/3-1, 69/3, 69/3+1, giving 22, 23, 24. No algebra involved, you just need to interpret the problem and build a tiny model in your head. Exactly like (some kinds of) programming.

That's exactly how I solved it. I'd consider myself a pretty decent programmer, but I did poorly in algebra and calculus at middle, high school, and university level.

Give me "x + (x + 1) + (x + 2) = 69" and I wouldn't know where to start. I could probably turn that word problem into that equation, but I would have no idea how to actually solve the equation algebraically.

But given the word problem alone I knew to divide by 3 and add the neighboring numbers. Now, actually dividing by 3 I'd need to use a calculator or spend a lot of time with a pencil and paper, but at least I knew the steps to solve it.

I'm awful at rote math and mental math, which is why I'm thankful I can make the computer do it for me.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#78

Post by walshemj »

rhiever wrote: post #65
murbard2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know they didn't correlate with performance as well as algebra if they were too difficult to implement?

Because they tried them, then decided to not continue trying them because they didn't correlate as well and were difficult and expensive to implement.

Are they really that hard I have done iq tests administered by professionals I can't recall it taking that long.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#80

Post by mzl »

murbard2 wrote: post #68
rhiever wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they tried them, then decided to not continue trying them because they didn't correlate as well and were difficult and expensive to implement.

There main test has 60 datapoints... how many tries do you think they made exactly before deciding they didn't correlate as well? Yes, IQ tests are expensive, but if you buy one test, the marginal cost of giving to an extra student is basically 0. I suspect it wasn't tested at all.

A real IQ test takes at least 2 hours of 1-on-1 time with a psycholigist to administer, so in the event that someone actually wants to do real iq testing the marginal cost is quite high.
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