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Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#71

Post by vacri »

mabbo wrote: post #11

I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it: if the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate people, then we're going about it in a very strange way. Lock people away in a cell for a decade, deny them a lot of basic human rights (like books) then when they're good and messed up in the head from it, let them lose on the public. If they re-offend, well, that's clearly a sign that they are just a bad person . Best lock the…

The purpose of prison is not to punish or rehabilitate specifically. Prison is part of the legal system, whose purpose is to provide stability and safety to society, with prison acting as a means to apply sentencing. Plenty of people (myself included) prefer the rehabilitation angle, plenty of others prefer the punishment angle - but both arguments see 'keeping society safe' as their target condition for how a prison system is run.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#72

Post by vacri »

tptacek wrote: post #35
ceejayoz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Governor of New York proposed giving prisoners in essence a community college education while incarcerated. Outcry from the public and lawmakers made him shelve the concept, despite studies showing massive drops in recidivism from such things.

Moralism aside, there's a point at which prisoner benefits can create an incentive to commit crimes. Not rape and murder, of course, but if you're 18 years old and driftless and already weighing the costs and benefits of, say, a commercial B&E, the fact that your worst case scenario includes a college education will have an impact. I'm not silly enough to think it would make criminals out of people who weren't alread…

That's sounds more like a "game theory" statement than a real life decision. The demographic you're describing isn't known for it's long-term planning capabilities, and most crimes are committed with the expectation that you won't get caught.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#73

Post by SteveGerencser »

ceejayoz wrote: post #20
SteveGerencser wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As they should. If you are going to give away a college education it should probably start with the people not in prison and even earlier before they begin to commit crimes. I understand the desire to rehabilitate people, but when those in prison have more services and resources handed to them than the general population gets then there is a serious problem. If we started earlier in the education process and young st…

The national average cost to keep someone a prisoner is $31k/year. http://www.reentryeducationnetwork.org/advocacy-platform.htm... > New York State college in prison programs have also proven effective, with only 7.7% of incarcerated people who attended college classes re-incarcerated compared to the 29.9% recidivism rate of those who did not attend any college classes. A 75% reduction in recidivism will pay for comm…

I'm just glad to see that a lot of people didn't read my full comment. Hard on crime was not what I said, what I said was that there is a finite amount of money available and that when we have to choose between educating prisoners or providing an education to people BEFORE they enter the criminal system the net gain for society is even higher because you stand a far greater chance of keeping them from entering the system to begin with. Making everything else irrelevant.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#74

Post by [deleted] »

Retra wrote: post #51
Fuzzwah wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about people joining the army for just this reason?

You don't lose that much freedom in the military. At least, most of the things you would be permitted from doing are things that you wouldn't need/want to do anyway. But I suppose you could say the same about prison, for some people.

[deleted]

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#75

Post by jqm »

Xeoncross wrote: post #43
Elrac wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US penal system is shockingly big on vengeance over resocialization. America's Christian fundamentalists like it that way because they claim as their own the worst personality flaws of their ancient Jewish war god. And American politicians know they can easily collect a few more votes by acting "tougher on crime."

As an American Christian I believe nothing of the sort. What is your source for this ad hominem claim? The bible actually doesn't support the idea of prisons at all. If someone murders, then they need to be put to death. Otherwise, theft, drugs, and all other crimes are best handled outside of a prison system that does very little to help a person recover from their problems. Christ advocated restoring a person. Secu…

Well...to be fair there is a bit of stoning in the bible. And if it comes to that, I'll take a stretch in prison if it's all the same.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#76

Post by pluma »

notahacker wrote: post #58
lotsofmangos wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already some attempts to charge those in custody for room, board and medical procedures, even going as far as trying to charge for involuntary procedures involved in searches. Or police requiring $3,000 for property damage for getting blood on their uniforms after beating up a guy with a different middle name as who they were looking for. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/us/in-riverside-california... http:…

I thought that Davis link was the most remarkable thing I'd ever seen. Then I Googled the back story, and found out that the officer lodging the complaint had also sworn in court that the Davis didn't bleed on him when the police department was sued, and then having somehow avoided a perjury charge, received a commendation from Ferguson City Council this year. And that one of the other officers involved is also facin…

If the guy died from the tasering, he was evidently just trying to avoid having to pay for the cost of the taser charge. His family should receive an appropriate invoice shortly.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#77

Post by lotsofmangos »

pluma wrote: post #76
notahacker wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that Davis link was the most remarkable thing I'd ever seen. Then I Googled the back story, and found out that the officer lodging the complaint had also sworn in court that the Davis didn't bleed on him when the police department was sued, and then having somehow avoided a perjury charge, received a commendation from Ferguson City Council this year. And that one of the other officers involved is also facin…

If the guy died from the tasering, he was evidently just trying to avoid having to pay for the cost of the taser charge. His family should receive an appropriate invoice shortly.

The invoice got lost by The Ministry of Information when the Department of Works switched half of the tubes back to Imperial again, so someone needs to submit the appropriate forms to Information Retrieval who will then have to take it up with Information Adjustment to request a new invoice with The Ministry of Information before the next budget trimester, or a fortnight before if they wish to transfer the issuance fee for the new invoice onto the new invoice.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#78

Post by Elrac »

Xeoncross wrote: post #43
Elrac wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US penal system is shockingly big on vengeance over resocialization. America's Christian fundamentalists like it that way because they claim as their own the worst personality flaws of their ancient Jewish war god. And American politicians know they can easily collect a few more votes by acting "tougher on crime."

As an American Christian I believe nothing of the sort. What is your source for this ad hominem claim? The bible actually doesn't support the idea of prisons at all. If someone murders, then they need to be put to death. Otherwise, theft, drugs, and all other crimes are best handled outside of a prison system that does very little to help a person recover from their problems. Christ advocated restoring a person. Secu…

Pardon the delayed response! I lost sight of this conversation.

Are you a Christian fundamentalist? Well known examples include the Westbury Baptist Church and the Southern Baptist Convention. If you're not like those people then what you believe is irrelevant to what I'm talking about and I don't understand why you're acting offended.

If you're interested, you can read a bit of exposition on the role of the Christian Right in pushing for increasingly harsh punishment in the US: http://www.politicalresearch.org/2004/11/06/calvinism-capita... . Along related lines, I find myself disgusted by the zeal with which Christian fundamentalists engage in the corporal punishment of children, again with solid support from the Bible: http://zakherys.tripod.com/greven.htm

You're correct that the Bible doesn't advocate imprisonment: It goes further by supporting slavery, which combines the loss of personal liberty with the obligation of enforced labor. And while the penal systems of modern, enlightened countries do tend to aim at resocialization rather than vengeance, prisons in the American Bible Belt have re-introduced conditions strongly reminiscent of Biblical slavery. Coincidence? I think not.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#79

Post by Xeoncross »

Elrac wrote: post #78
Xeoncross wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American Christian I believe nothing of the sort. What is your source for this ad hominem claim? The bible actually doesn't support the idea of prisons at all. If someone murders, then they need to be put to death. Otherwise, theft, drugs, and all other crimes are best handled outside of a prison system that does very little to help a person recover from their problems. Christ advocated restoring a person. Secu…

Pardon the delayed response! I lost sight of this conversation. Are you a Christian fundamentalist? Well known examples include the Westbury Baptist Church and the Southern Baptist Convention. If you're not like those people then what you believe is irrelevant to what I'm talking about and I don't understand why you're acting offended. If you're interested, you can read a bit of exposition on the role of the Christia…

Elrac, thanks for the follow-up. When I have time I would like to address this further.

However, I do consider myself a Christian - and looking at the 5 truths that make someone a "Fundamental Christian" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#Christian) I certainly hold to all five.

However, it appears that the new meaning of "Fundamental Christian" you and some others have assigned actually has nothing to do with this standard definition - and is a often a warped, hateful, version of someone's own imagination.

The "Christian Right" is about as varied as the muslim world is. You have to understand that the only people you hear about are those that are doing it wrong. For example, no one cares about everyone walking normally - it's those that start fights that get the attention.

Anyway, "It goes further by supporting slavery" isn't true either. That is just a sensationalist claim based on the ancient history recorded in the old testament. Jesus and the apostles and prophets actually went the other way and said that Christians should serve others instead of themselves.

Slavery was abolished in Britain and America through work of Christians like William Wilberforce and Martin Luther King, Jr.

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