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When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

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Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#71

Post by qwerta »

muyuu wrote: post #64
qwerta wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some rules "enforce themselfs". Unpaid overtime brings positive motivation for emplyers to broken. Paid overtime is negative motivations, and people are more likely to report it and sue due to lost money.

And they don't sue for the free hours worked on Sunday because...? As I said, you start by creating a culture where rules are enforced, then work from there.

Nice one :-)

Sunday is free because it is 'overtime'. Workers are paid fixed pay per month. Suing for Sunday would not bring any extra money to worker.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#72

Post by aetherson »

s3nnyy wrote: post #27
mathattack wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think working hours is just a symptom. Look at the funnel... Korean kids spend an ungodly amount of time in class and doing test prep. Putting a cosmetic limit to the amount of hours worked doesn't change society on it's own.

Yet, South Korea ranks high for a First-World-Country in "increase in happiness". If one sorts "World Happiness Report" according to "change in happiness 2005-2007", the top countries are mostly from the second- or third-world with the exception of South Korea.

I think that the parsimonious explanation for that is that Korea's wealth per capita has exploded in the late 20th and early 21st Century.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#73

Post by Scalestein »

seanstickle wrote: post #58
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're paying me for the results. Not for the hours. True. But since "results" aren't exactly quantifiable, how can they get steady value for their money? Is result A equal to result B or result Q? If results M, N, and O are all equal, how many M/N/O results does it take to earn one week's worth of paycheck? What if they decide that they're paying too much for M/N/O results, and want at least 11 of those per week…

I feel for you. Apparently you don't have a boss who can define what they want from you. This is not uncommon, and we're struggling with that ourselves. We've all spent so many years with the belief that putting in hours is the work, that we don't really know what we've hired people to actually do. All your questions are the same questions you have in an TIME + PRESENCE = RESULTS job. What if they decide they want 11…

I'm all for the 'results based' work environment but I think measuring results of work that you hire people to do IS quite hard.

A great example is refactoring. Say you hired a dev and he delivered a product that worked but is written terribly (already a question there, how do you gauge that in terms of 'results'?). Now you hire a second dev to clean it up and make it maintainable. How do you evaluate when he has delivered the 'results'?

edit: I think the closest thing to a true results based workplace would be an early stage startup. Everyone is invested in the product and striving towards creating it, not just putting in hours. In those cases people usually end up working WAY more than 40 hours a week.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#74

Post by drzaiusapelord »

_dark_matter_ wrote: post #35
s3nnyy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe also that is why big things come from the US? True pain-points are more obvious in a place where one is not pampered and protected by society too much?

Talk about jumping to conclusions. This is both a gross misunderstanding of their culture and government, as well as unsubstantiated claims of causation.

Low regulatory environments with lot of capital and a motivated work force usually equals success. This is why you're on HN and I'm not on swiss-tech-news.com.

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#75

Post by s3nnyy »

foxpc wrote: post #65
s3nnyy wrote: post #20

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report ). Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace. (Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

I'd think that Switzerland is one of the hardest countries to move to because of all the prices. Starting to live there should be VERY expensive. I wonder if anyone's had to go through that experience? P.S. I'd love to live in Switzerland, being in the somewhat-neutral land where you're not that threatened by Russia or other things that might make your days miserable :|

Actually, I try blogging about my experience moving here. You can read a first draft here: http://goo.gl/EIX4UX.

Things are way cheaper than I thought, considering the salaries. As a Python entry-level developer who has to be pampered I make around 5000 Euro net-salary at a no-name SMB. I could make 10%-15% more at a bank doing Java.

The bottom-line is that I can save 4000,- Euro each month, because I spend only 1000 Euro on accommodation and food. In only one year, I will be able to buy a two-room apartment in a German town (where I like to hangout on weekends), without taking a mortgage...

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#76

Post by s3nnyy »

spindritf wrote: post #61
s3nnyy wrote: post #20

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report ). Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace. (Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out How important is it to speak German?

You'd be fine. Everything here (products etc.) have to be in at least two languages. In a city like Zurich, you'd get along very well in English only. Also, there are many companies around that have English as their "company language" (for instance Google) .

Btw. Google-Maps was largely developed by Zooglers (Google's Zurich office). They call it also "the real mountain-view".

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#77

Post by s3nnyy »

hobo_mark wrote: post #46
s3nnyy wrote: post #20

Happiness-wise South Korea ranks 41. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report ). Here in Switzerland (3rd in happiness) it is not unusual that people are employed only 3-4 days / week and still make enough money to live well. I don't know of any other country where this is commonplace. (Full disclosure: If you're from the EU and looking for a tech-job over here, I'd be happy to help out).

Excuse me? I work in CH and I have never heard of that, in fact it's not unheard of to have urgent work to be done on a saturday or sunday 'for free'.

The most curios job-offer I found recently is this: "Head of Development 20%" (means 1 day per week of work only): http://mindband.ch/were-hiring-junior-head-development-20

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#78

Post by foxpc »

s3nnyy wrote: post #75
foxpc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd think that Switzerland is one of the hardest countries to move to because of all the prices. Starting to live there should be VERY expensive. I wonder if anyone's had to go through that experience? P.S. I'd love to live in Switzerland, being in the somewhat-neutral land where you're not that threatened by Russia or other things that might make your days miserable :|

Actually, I try blogging about my experience moving here. You can read a first draft here: http://goo.gl/EIX4UX . Things are way cheaper than I thought, considering the salaries. As a Python entry-level developer who has to be pampered I make around 5000 Euro net-salary at a no-name SMB. I could make 10%-15% more at a bank doing Java. The bottom-line is that I can save 4000,- Euro each month, because I spend only 100…

That was an interesting read, thanks! Sounds like the country is amazing and giving.

I'll have dreams about it tonight ;)

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#79

Post by fapjacks »

grecy wrote: post #45
fapjacks wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ancestors are Swiss, and I have seriously considered moving back. :)

At the very least, start the paperwork now to get your citizenship and passport. It only costs a few hundred dollars, and it's like having an ace up your sleeve. You might never use it, but the beauty is it's there if you want it. (I recently did ~18 months of paperwork to get my Polish citizenship and passport. I've never been to Europe, and really don't know if I ever will. But 10 years from now if I want to move t…

I am VERY interested in what you are proposing, but I have no idea where to get more information. Can you please provide me with a couple of links you found useful in doing this?

Re: When Korea imposed a limit on working hours, did it make people happier?

#80

Post by s3nnyy »

_dark_matter_ wrote: post #35
s3nnyy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe also that is why big things come from the US? True pain-points are more obvious in a place where one is not pampered and protected by society too much?

Talk about jumping to conclusions. This is both a gross misunderstanding of their culture and government, as well as unsubstantiated claims of causation.

Maybe it did not came across because I am not a native speaker. I meant something along the lines what PG is pointing out in the "Why startups condense in America" essay:

"The problem in more traditional places like Europe [...] is the attitude they reflect: that an employee is a kind of servant, whom the employer has a duty to protect. It used to be that way in America too. In 1970 you were still supposed to get a job with a big company, for whom ideally you'd work your whole career. In return the company would take care of you: they'd try not to fire you, cover your medical expenses, and support you in old age.

Gradually employment has been shedding such paternalistic overtones and becoming simply an economic exchange. But the importance of the new model is not just that it makes it easier for startups to grow. More important, I think, is that it it makes it easier for people to start startups."

A major manager of T-Mobile in Germany was in the news when he pointed out what PG is talking about. "Generation Y" in Germany prefers to work for BMW until they retire instead of starting something on their own. According to this manager, Germany is stagnating. We're neither cheaper than China nor more innovative than the US, because young people don't and don't have to take risks. (http://huffingtonpost.de/2014/08/11/thomas-sattelberger-gene...)

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