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Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

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Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#71

Post by spacemanmatt »

venomsnake wrote: post #40
kristopolous wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let them control the narrative. The discourse they have is absurd. Their system not only doesn't work but creates haystacks so big that needles get deeply hidden and no real intelligence happens. The rationale for the spy-everyone story is such an implausible fantasy. We have to stop letting people get away with saying it without being challenged. This needs to stop.

It is even worse. The amount of data NSA stores makes them an even juicer target for infiltration, subversion and otherwise gaining access to data they have collected.

This is such a scary side to consider. Most people who are just fine with their own government building dossiers right off the wire, and potentially losing said dossiers in haystacks, don't consider that foreign double-agents will become quite adept at searching the haystacks loyal agents have neglected.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#73

Post by spacemanmatt »

jokoon wrote: post #58
CHY872 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not much water. If you have a field of corn 700m by 700m, it needs that much water to grow.

But they're not growing corn. I mean what would the NSA need water for ? Drinking ? Can't they just ship bottled water ? Do they really have that much personnel there ?

I'm slightly surprised this is a question. Water is part of many cooling systems. They're running a server farm. Surely they have some other uses for it, but cooling their server farm is the big, obvious application.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#74

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

gliese1337 wrote: post #64
Osiris wrote: post #54

> “What’s noteworthy is no one on the panel said: ‘Hey, wait a minute, we can’t do this,'” he says. “They had some specific concerns about the language of the bill, but there was no outright opposition.” That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is. I'd be surprised if the bill passed (and if it was it would surely be caught up in litigation), but kudos to someone in such…

Why should that be surprising? Republicans / conservatives are all about personal liberty. And reducing taxes, which seems relevant in this case. The justification given in the article for supporting the bill is that they don't want to support the NSA "on the back of our citizens", after all.

Generally only personal liberty for people like them, tho.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#75

Post by happyscrappy »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #70
optimusclimb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to retract the first sentence of that if it hurt your feelings, but honestly how do you envision running/protecting a country without an organization with a similar mission statement in the modern world? I'm a peaceful person, but not all of the world is. You just can't ignore that. Even if you're Switzerland, you don't want to essentially keep your ears open for people sending coded messages about their potenti…

Let's get right down to brass tacks, here. America is an imperial force in most of the world. We are attacked in response to our aggression. References to this "modern" world are somewhat weasely to me: The NSA exists to protect us from retaliation, not unjustified attacks. It's impossible to talk about spying without bringing in the whole fabric of our foreign wars.

People love to rail against the US but not the entire West. That makes for easy do nothing status quo.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#76

Post by kristopolous »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #71
venomsnake wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is even worse. The amount of data NSA stores makes them an even juicer target for infiltration, subversion and otherwise gaining access to data they have collected.

This is such a scary side to consider. Most people who are just fine with their own government building dossiers right off the wire, and potentially losing said dossiers in haystacks, don't consider that foreign double-agents will become quite adept at searching the haystacks loyal agents have neglected.

It becomes even more bizarre when you consider that the NSA has been caught tapping foreign nationals and diplomats.

Two countries in conflict may hack the US as a proxy to get at the others communications - with no direct interest in the US at all.

This is a factually possible scenario. It's the unchecked blank check bureaucratic process. This the natural output given such input parameters.

We need a way to make this more real to people:

Dysfunctional projects of grandeur is how organized people respond to no oversight and unlimited funding. They will invent justifications to perpetuate their purpose. This happens through an utter failure of discretion in governments, startups, not-for-profits, wars, corporations... everything.

Preventing it is Our Job to make a functional society.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#77

Post by snowwrestler »

Osiris wrote: post #54

> “What’s noteworthy is no one on the panel said: ‘Hey, wait a minute, we can’t do this,'” he says. “They had some specific concerns about the language of the bill, but there was no outright opposition.” That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is. I'd be surprised if the bill passed (and if it was it would surely be caught up in litigation), but kudos to someone in such…

"Conservative" and "Republican" are both very broad terms. A conservative Republican could be an evangelical Christian who wishes to use the power of the state of enforce their rules of morality. Or it could be a hawkish statist who does not believe that the national defense apparatus could ever overreach. Or it could be a near-libertarian originalist who believes the government should be shrunk back to the size it was in 1800.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#78

Post by snowwrestler »

twombly wrote: post #26
optimusclimb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly one of the most naive comments I've ever seen on here. We keep a military at the most basic level - so that another country can't send a boat full of troops over here, or airplanes filled with troops - invade us - and take over. In other words, basic protection against normal acts of war. Imagine if you, thizzbuzz, suddenly awoke tomorrow and found out the dictator of some small European country died, and yo…

Part of the reason people would even want to send a boat full of troops is because of the way our military interacts with the rest of the world. It's an unfortunate situation to be in but that doesn't mean it needs to continue forever. If we would just scale back the size of our military presence it would definitely be safer for everyone.

> Part of the reason people would even want to send a boat full of troops...

Yes but not the entire or only reason, so even if we had the best possible foreign policy, we would still need a national defense.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#79

Post by ninkendo »

vladtaltos wrote: post #15
prbuckley wrote: post #3

If every state stood up and passed bills like this the NSA couldnt have giant data centers in this country.

that's a pretty naive viewpoint. they could've just as easily built the facility on a military base... then what ? trying to prevent espionage through limiting access to resources is a very ineffective way... another point is that the law won't seem to have any effect (even if it passes by the way - no guarantees on that) on the current installation until 2021... 7 years is a pretty long term to revert a bill or make…

> afaik (I'm not a us citizen) federal law supersedes state law in the US. So it follows that you need to have federal safeguards against wiretapping and whatnot... state legislation is cute at best but seems ineffective.

States can draft laws that contradict federal laws (or disallow federal practices), leading to court cases where the state defends the constitutionality of their law, and the feds defend the constitutionality of the federal law (or practice.)

This is one of the faster ways a law can make its way to the supreme court (see the ACA implementation in half the states, before it came before SCOTUS and it was ruled constitutional.)

It'd be interesting to see this law take effect, have the feds sue, and watch the states defend their decision in the supreme court, in which case we'd get to see a ruling on the constitutionality of the wiretapping (if the justices were willing to hear/rule on it.)

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#80

Post by pXMzR2A »

Osiris wrote: post #54

> “What’s noteworthy is no one on the panel said: ‘Hey, wait a minute, we can’t do this,'” he says. “They had some specific concerns about the language of the bill, but there was no outright opposition.” That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is. I'd be surprised if the bill passed (and if it was it would surely be caught up in litigation), but kudos to someone in such…

> That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is.

Isn't it conservatives that are for guns and their reason is the anti-government militia amendment in the constitution? I'd expect them not to like NSA either.

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