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The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

thekidshouldseethis.com

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Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#71
post #65
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a Brian Cox show we're talking about, not a science show. I'm surprised there weren't more slow mo shots of Cox doing his "boyish wonder" face.

His 'boyish wonder', although personally I think it's genuine, does get annoying to those of us who have their own wonder to contend with. Though, perhaps, those completely devoid of it themselves appreciate the cues. I really don't mind Cox... what I despise is the trend of putting comedians in to science and politics shows in an attempt to relieve the dowdiness (Sorry Dara). Then again, I'm one of those people who…

I agree. Have you ever tried listening to The Infinite Monkey Cage on BBC Radio 4? [1]

It's motto seems to be "Look at us! We're scientists but we're so wacky!!!111"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00snr0w

Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#72
post #65
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a Brian Cox show we're talking about, not a science show. I'm surprised there weren't more slow mo shots of Cox doing his "boyish wonder" face.

His 'boyish wonder', although personally I think it's genuine, does get annoying to those of us who have their own wonder to contend with. Though, perhaps, those completely devoid of it themselves appreciate the cues. I really don't mind Cox... what I despise is the trend of putting comedians in to science and politics shows in an attempt to relieve the dowdiness (Sorry Dara). Then again, I'm one of those people who…

[deleted]

Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#73
post #71
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His 'boyish wonder', although personally I think it's genuine, does get annoying to those of us who have their own wonder to contend with. Though, perhaps, those completely devoid of it themselves appreciate the cues. I really don't mind Cox... what I despise is the trend of putting comedians in to science and politics shows in an attempt to relieve the dowdiness (Sorry Dara). Then again, I'm one of those people who…

I agree. Have you ever tried listening to The Infinite Monkey Cage on BBC Radio 4? [1] It's motto seems to be "Look at us! We're scientists but we're so wacky!!!111" http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00snr0w

Robin Ince certainly has a lot to answer for.

Ben Goldacre is the master of this style of science communication. Friendly and fun and enthusiastic, but in a way that appeals to both laymen and his peers. I suppose epidemiology is somewhat more human than astrophysics, so its easier.

Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#74
post #6

Seeing as the original site has now fallen over, the actual youtube link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E43-CfukEgs

And for the violently impatient, the actual drop: http://youtu.be/E43-CfukEgs?t=2m52s

"Violently impatient" - I must remember to use that one myself

Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#75

I wish the producers were less enamoured of their slow-mo and showed us the whole thing in real-time. The "weird" thing is seeing feathers plummet to the ground and I wish we got to see more of that.

I actually like the slow-mo as it reaffirms the fact that there is no air in that chamber.

When the feathers first drop you see a slight sway in the feathers, but only due to the acceleration. It's actually quite a sight to see feathers accelerate so quickly and stay so still.

Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#76
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too though this "boyish wonder" face was phony. And yet the "boyish wonder" face will change the fate of the whole video when I show it to my 7yo. The rest is concrete and iron, not really appealing to kids, despite the potential awesomeness of the huge vacuum chamber.

What? No! I don't know about you, but I would have a silly grin on my face too if I actually got to see this experiment live - I mean it's such a classic result - we've all been told that this is what would happen, but very few of us actually get to see it. It's like the experience of seeing the moons of Jupiter the first time that you look at it through a telescope - yes, you know the moons are there, you've even se…

I would've also had a silly grin on my face due to the epiphany I would've experienced.

Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#77

Can someone explain to me the last part about the items standing still and no force acting on them? Isn't gravity acting on them, pulling the earth and items together?

Imagine being inside of a closed box like an elevator. Without leaving the box there is no way to tell the difference from being in free fall towards Earth versus floating in interstellar space. Therefor, general relativity take the perspective that gravity is a fictitious force (like centrifugal force) that arises from the shape of spacetime.

>versus floating in interstellar space

Versus being inside that an elevator that is being accelerated in interstellar space

This seems like a pretty good explanation: http://www.astronomynotes.com/relativity/s3.htm

Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#79
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? The close-up shot at 2:52s is under vacuum. The "fluttering" you see is the elastic wave in the feather caused by the sudden drop in internal tension. The feather is an elastic object (to a first approximation). When the feather is hung, there's internal tension keeping it stationary and giving its shape. When the feather is unhooked, this internal tension doesn't just disappear instantaneously, rat…

There are two slow motion initial drops closeups: * 2:52 -> http://youtu.be/E43-CfukEgs?t=2m52s * 4:51 -> http://youtu.be/E43-CfukEgs?t=4m15s The second one (4:51) looks like a drop in the air, because the barbules (the small parts of the feather) go "up" and flutter. The first one (2:52) looks like an actual drop in vacuum. But I think that the oscillations are not related to the speed of sound in the feather, becau…

(Hope the Unicode math symbols appear correctly. )

> After the feather is released, the feather is gravityless (in the non inertial reference frame) so the barbules go to their natural position, so they go "up", but only slightly and the flutter is minimal.

You're saying the same thing as I did in different words, in fact my analysis was also in the accelerating frame :-).

So, in the accelerating frame at t=0 (the drop), we have an deformed elastic object that acts very similar to a harmonic oscillator, with some initial deformation Δx. It's not exactly a simple harmonic oscillator because the mass is distributed throughout, and the effective mass is NOT the mass of the spring (in fact it's one third of that), but it's relatively easy to show it moves like one (to the first degree for small displacements), albeit not in a Hacker News discussion. It will move according to

    D²[x] + 2ζωD[x] + ω²x = 0
where ζ=c/2√(mk) is the damping ratio, ω=√(k/m) is the undamped angular frequency and m is the effective mass. For a feather, it might well be that the oscillator is overdamped, of course. The ball most certainly has a much larger Q factor than the feather.

Elasticity and sound waves are very closely related. Sound is a particular kind of wave traveling through an elastic medium. For an approximately linear object, we only have longitudinal waves that move with c=√(Y/ρ). Y is Young's modulus and ρ is the density. You can immediately see that small values of Y give rise to small values of c.

For ideal springs of length X and cross-section S we can prove that (exercise left to the reader) that:

    Y = Xk/S
so

    kΔx/S = Y Δx/X => F/S = Y Δx/X => Y = FX/SΔx
I can estimate X=0.2m and S=1E-5 (maybe larger than you expected because we need to consider the whole feather as the spring, not just its stem (wrong term?). Under it's own weight the feather seems to move approximately Δx=1E-2m so X/Δx=20, F is of course half the weight. It's hard to get good estimates on the internet for the weight of a feather. The most reliable estimates seem to be 8.2E-6kg for a chicken feather. Chicken feathers are small, let's say 5E-2m so our feathers have a mass of 8.2E-6kg·(X/5E-2m)^3=0.5E-3kg. Half a gram for the giant feather. Doesn't sound implausible.

Plugging all values in we get Y=5248Pa. Speed of sound is c=√(Y/ρ)=c=√(Y/(M/V))=√(YSX/M)=4.58m/s, a very low value indeed and quite consistent with the slow motion video.

Just for kicks, the speed of sound in rubber 60m/s. It shouldn't surprise us at all that the speed in feathers is smaller than for rubber. Feathers are much weaker springs than usual rubber springs. (Note that if we had a spring made of rubber coils, the speed of sound in the spring would also be much smaller than the speed of sound in a rubber rod).

The approximations made above are all pretty wild, but the point I was trying to make is that waves travel quite slow in weak springs. The exact values don't matter. Just get yourself a long spring made of plastic or thin metal wire and create some waves. You can see the propagations, they move very slowly.

Re: The hammer-feather drop in the world’s biggest vacuum chamber [video]

#80

I love how professionals who work at that facility and have probably deeply understood those principles for decades still display so much wonder at seeing this experiment with their own eyes.

I might be cynical, but I think they were putting on a show a bit. They already had some sort of apparatus set up to do the simultaneous drops. My guess is that it's a standard demonstration for visiting dignitaries and the like.

>They already had some sort of apparatus set up to do the simultaneous drops.

Why do you say that? They could have easily made the apparatus for this experiment.

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