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The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#71

Post by justcommenting »

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions.

I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tablets to start teaching themselves how to debug web applications, and deal with all of the various forms of other-ing that tend to alienate people away from starting to learn how to understand and help build the web.

I think it's actually quite important for Mozilla to assume that of course every user deserves built-in access to a high-quality suite of tools for debugging by default.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#72

Post by lmm »

Yoric wrote: post #54
tuxone wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why a different browser and not just an extension? I feel like different browsers leads to different versions of engines, languages etc. aka a lot of headaches. As a web developer, I want to see what my users see, not what "developers" see..

Actually, this version of Firefox activates a number of web features that are not activated in the release version, to let webdevs test against features that are either not 100% stable or not fully standardized yet. But other than that, it's basically Firefox.

So it's just like Chrome Canary? Not exactly "the first" then.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#73

Post by callahad »

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

I'm not sure I see condescension here.

Everyone does deserve access to built-in, high-quality tools. And everyone already gets that, with all major browsers. No one is taking away the built in developer tools in Firefox, Chrome, IE, Safari, or Opera. The problem is that they're always just a little bit older than the tip of the current development branch. And that's fine for folks who are starting to teach themselves how to debug web applications. Hell, that's fine for most people, developers included.

But there's a lot of development happening in this space, and sometimes you need access to tools or features that aren't yet stable enough for wide release. So you download Firefox Nightly or Chrome Canary. And you flip on something in about:config or enable experimental web platform features in chrome://flags. And you're off to the races.

That's not dividing the web, and it's not giving different tools to developers versus users. It's trading stability for slightly faster access to new, shiny things.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#74

Post by Taek »

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

The world that developers and users live in is quite different. And a lot of people won't think of it as 'ScaryFox', but rather as 'CoolFox' which has all of these interesting and advanced-use buttons and knobs that let you see the plumbing of the web page you are using.

Developers want a lot of stuff in their face that the average user doesn't want to deal with. I can see the value of having a 'switch to development mode' button, but having something that's from-the-ground-up built for developers sounds like potentially a much nicer tool to use.

Time will tell if it's a good move on Mozilla's part, but I'm excited for the announcement.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#75

Post by hrktb »

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

I understand the point, but I think there is a reality where developing and actually experiencing the product can be fundamentally different.

For instance the security model for a browser should be ultra tight and protect the user from the site, but as a developer I'd want to access and modify my files directly through the inspector panel.

Another example would be the use of cache, where I want the minimum possible retention while a user would want the opposite.

As you mention, settings in the developer tools could allow a myriad of options to switch from a "user" mode to a "developer" mode. But honestly I'd understand if it happens to be easier to build two different applications, even just for keeping the "user" side code simple enough to make it easy to maintain and secure.

Then eventually bundle the two apps together if you want to keep the "tools" right next to the "viewers".

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#76

Post by cageface »

froaway wrote: post #43
cageface wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was Mozilla's insistence on IndexedDB that tipped the balance. WebSQL was already well supported in Chrome and Safari and if Mozilla hadn't inexplicably come down on Microsoft's side we would have a reasonable client-side database solution today. Lest this particular piece of villainy be forgotten: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/06/beyond-html5-database-apis...

It takes a special kind of myopia to call a decision inexplicable, and then to link to a very explicit description of their reasons for that decision.

Refuted by almost every single comment on the post, yes.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#77

Post by callahad »

snlacks wrote: post #46
coldtea wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like anyone has taken that away from you. And as for the new tool, since it also shares the Mozilla engine, it's as if you're using Firefox (+ some plugins) with regards to web behavior.

This would probably start the trend of the dev features being reduced in regular browsers, I'd guess. But you're right no one is taking it away yet.

Why would any browser vendor have an incentive to remove or restrict developer features in released browsers?

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#78

Post by cageface »

turingfail wrote: post #48
cageface wrote: post #33

At Mozilla we know that developers are the cornerstone of the Web, that’s why we actively push standards and continue to build great tools to make it easier for you to create awesome Web content and apps. Like canning WebSQL for spurious reasons and forcing people to use a half-baked spec like IndexedDB instead? As much as I applaud most of what Mozilla has done to further the interests of the open web it's hard to f…

> canning WebSQL for spurious reasons The way to implement WebSQL is to copy SQLite 3.1.9. That is not exactly a baked specification, that is the kind of crap companies used to pull to make unimplementable "standards" for everyone who doesn't license their code and doing that a few times over a decade would make w3c compliant browsers pretty crappy.

It would have made much more sense to use that as a basis for a new, more formal spec than to pull some new NoSQL spec that nobody wanted out of their ass.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#80

Post by wcummings »

daigoba66 wrote: post #25

So I'm actually a fan of leaving dev tools installed and available in a normal user's web browser; whether it's IE, Chrome, FireFox, or whatever. If a user is reporting some bug or issue that's difficult to reproduce, I like being able to just hit F12 _on their computer_ and diagnose and debug. Sometimes I can guide the user, sometimes I do it remotely. Having the ability to debug software like that is phenomenal.

There have been some phishing attacks that relied on users accessing the dev tools.
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