U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes • Hacker News Board

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#71

Post by ska » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 2:27 AM UTC

differentView wrote: post #40

rrrx3 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they're being exploited. Choose to go to class or not, they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is especially true when they're turning in BS papers for crap degrees that can't and won't serve them once they leave school. A minuscule few make it pro. The re…

>they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is true for only a very small percentage of college athletes. Most college sports don't generate a lot of money for their schools. Even the most popular sports, men's football and men's basketball, generate big money for a minority of…

But isn't it this same minority of elite programs looking for ways to carry academically incompetent students?

Most student athletes are students first, not looking for an opening in a professional league.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#72

Post by remarkEon » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 2:27 AM UTC

IvyMike wrote: post #21

MLB has the minor leagues as their feeder program. The NFL has college football as their feeder program. There are a lot of tradeoffs, but in the end I think the MLB's system is better. To me, the charade of "student athletes" in football gets more and more strained each year. The question is if they did want to transition to a minor league football system, how can you go from here to there in an orderly fashion?

I honestly don't think it would be possible. College Football is something that is so culturally engrained in America that even tinkering with it a little bit (like adding a tiny 4 team playoff) is met with huge amounts of skepticism. The MLB's system is also different because, on average, it takes longer to develop the typical player post-college. Obviously there are player outliers, but baseball is much more technical than football - which sort of justifies the entire farm system in and of itself. The incubation period is just typically longer.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#73

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 2:28 AM UTC

jordanpg wrote: post #39

cellis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Playing sports at the highest levels is an academic activity, it's just not recognized as an academic activity today. You definitely have to study, recognize patterns, solve problems, etc. Just not so much reading books and writing papers.

> reading books and writing papers. So you'd argue that football is an intellectual pursuit in the same sense that math, physics, philosophy, or history is? That study of the nuts and bolts of the game is worthy of the attention of our finest minds (as a discipline unto itself)? The "reading books and writing papers" you mention is a severe and tragic distortion of why universities exist. It has little to do with the…

[deleted]

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#74

Post by cpwright » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 2:29 AM UTC

IvyMike wrote: post #21

MLB has the minor leagues as their feeder program. The NFL has college football as their feeder program. There are a lot of tradeoffs, but in the end I think the MLB's system is better. To me, the charade of "student athletes" in football gets more and more strained each year. The question is if they did want to transition to a minor league football system, how can you go from here to there in an orderly fashion?

It seems like you could assign each existing NFL franchise the right to have a minor league franchise (maybe let them bid or have a lottery for the rights to specific cities); and then draft out of high-school and college rather than just out of college.

The player's union would clearly have something to say about it, particularly if they can easily bring players up and down mid-season based on injuries or performance.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#75

Post by javert » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 3:10 AM UTC

evanriley wrote: post #10

w1ntermute wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably happening at a lot of other universities with big sports programs. UNC just happened to get caught.

Oh, its probably happening at most universities. I went to N.C. State and would be surprised if it WASN'T happening there too. I assume any school which gets a amount of money from their sports program would have something similar to UNC.

The amazing thing at UNC is that it was just a rogue low-level employee (who picked up a couple of minor co-conspirators on the way), NOT a coordinated effort from the top of the university down.

I would imagine at many or most big sports schools, it is the latter.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the latter at UNC too. If so, UNC has done a world-class cover up so far by making it look like the former.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#76

Post by remarkEon » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 3:12 AM UTC

cpwright wrote: post #74

IvyMike wrote: post #21

MLB has the minor leagues as their feeder program. The NFL has college football as their feeder program. There are a lot of tradeoffs, but in the end I think the MLB's system is better. To me, the charade of "student athletes" in football gets more and more strained each year. The question is if they did want to transition to a minor league football system, how can you go from here to there in an orderly fashion?

It seems like you could assign each existing NFL franchise the right to have a minor league franchise (maybe let them bid or have a lottery for the rights to specific cities); and then draft out of high-school and college rather than just out of college. The player's union would clearly have something to say about it, particularly if they can easily bring players up and down mid-season based on injuries or performanc…

Maybe. But you'd have to convince the NFL that a minor league is something worth investing in. A longer pipeline of higher volume of play means that the risk of injury would be substantially higher. The NFL seems more interesting in making money that dealing with anything more complex than moving a team to London.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#77

Post by w1ntermute » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 3:56 AM UTC

javert wrote: post #75

evanriley wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, its probably happening at most universities. I went to N.C. State and would be surprised if it WASN'T happening there too. I assume any school which gets a amount of money from their sports program would have something similar to UNC.

The amazing thing at UNC is that it was just a rogue low-level employee (who picked up a couple of minor co-conspirators on the way), NOT a coordinated effort from the top of the university down. I would imagine at many or most big sports schools, it is the latter. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the latter at UNC too. If so, UNC has done a world-class cover up so far by making it look like the former.

Throwing a couple of minions under the bus when things look bad is a time-tested strategy.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#78

Post by OvidNaso » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 4:33 AM UTC

bo1024 wrote: post #70

rrrx3 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they're being exploited. Choose to go to class or not, they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. This is especially true when they're turning in BS papers for crap degrees that can't and won't serve them once they leave school. A minuscule few make it pro. The re…

> The problem is that they're being exploited. Choose to go to class or not, they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. I'm tired of seeing this argument without data. If you sit down and think about the numbers, you'll see that for the vast majority of NCAA athletes, this is false.…

I'm sorry, but why would you compare revenue to minor league baseball? Collegiate basketball and football make significatly more money than collegiate or minor league baseball. America has clearly decided that they wI'ill spend just as much money on second tier leagues for these sports and any valuation would need to be based on this or be disingenuous.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#79

Post by iends » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 4:59 AM UTC

redraga wrote: post #54

European football (soccer) teams run academies of their own to groom players. If a youngster is serious about becoming a professional footballer, he/she joins these academies. They are given a "well-rounded" education, but the emphasis is obviously on the sport. Graduates end being signed by the parent club, or getting contracts with lower-level teams if they can make the cut. I'm curious to understand why this syste…

I wasn't a particularly great soccer player in middle school and highschool (some players on the club team ended up playing D3 soccer at small colleges), but the academies really didn't exist in America 20 years ago when I started playing as a kid.

Things are much different now many of the clubs in MLS, NASL, and USL have their own academies where the players are coached by professional coaches or pro players at starting very young ages. One local example is: http://www.capitalarearailhawks.com/

The model is much different, though. Generally the goal with most of these academies is to make a college team.

Re: U.N.C. Investigation Reveals ‘Shadow Curriculum’ to Help Athletes

#80

Post by jdminhbg » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 5:02 AM UTC

OvidNaso wrote: post #78

bo1024 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that they're being exploited. Choose to go to class or not, they are not being paid anything remotely close to the value that these schools get from them in terms of team gear sales, ad revenue, tv time, increased enrollment, etc etc etc. I'm tired of seeing this argument without data. If you sit down and think about the numbers, you'll see that for the vast majority of NCAA athletes, this is false.…

I'm sorry, but why would you compare revenue to minor league baseball? Collegiate basketball and football make significatly more money than collegiate or minor league baseball. America has clearly decided that they wI'ill spend just as much money on second tier leagues for these sports and any valuation would need to be based on this or be disingenuous.

He explained: the difference between minor league baseball and NCAA football is the fanbase and tradition the schools bring. A putative Ann Arbor Wolves minor league football team would not have a stadium that dwarfs all NFL stadia.