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Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

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Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#71
post #67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works in that given example. Of course if you invent an arbitrary number it holds no value. But the OP postulates that through force of state having safety criteria restaurants must advertise is a systemic benefit to the food service industry, and if it actually was , then restaurants everywhere would naturally adopt it if it increases consumer participation and revenues. More than anything I'm trying to indicate…

The scenario you paint isn't common for a number of reasons, but the primary issue is information asymmetry. I don't know enough about food preparation and don't have access to the kitchen of a restaurant, so I have no idea how to properly assign it a health rating. The restaurant itself can obviously produce a health rating, but if they are the type of place to skimp on health issues, it isn't that much of a stretch…

> but if they are the type of place to skimp on health issues, it isn't that much of a stretch to believe they may lie about health issues.

I'm not saying the restaurant itself would give itself a rating, I'm saying that if there was an economic advantage to information garnered from food safety, a private company could charge restaurants to get rated, and restaurants would seek ratings to garner customers. The fact such a service does not exist indicates that customers don't care about food safety enough to change their dining preferences to restaurants that provide such information, or else restaurants would do it, and I would be the first to line up to found that company because it would be an unexploited profit center.

> accountability and information asymmetry was GTA...

You can falsify the state of your kitchen just as much to a state inspection agent as a private one. And in both cases being caught doing it has repercussions, the former would be police at your door, the later a slander campaign by the ratings board.

Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#72
post #65
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fine hypothetical, but a) I know of no city where restaurants voluntarily put together such a system, and b) if each restaurant gets to pick who evaluates it, there's no particular reason for customers to trust the scores. I also don't buy your view that the magic sparkle ponies of the market will always take care of everything. I think your approach works in theory, with infinitely smart and well informed h…

It works in that given example. Of course if you invent an arbitrary number it holds no value. But the OP postulates that through force of state having safety criteria restaurants must advertise is a systemic benefit to the food service industry, and if it actually was , then restaurants everywhere would naturally adopt it if it increases consumer participation and revenues. More than anything I'm trying to indicate…

This statement troubles me:

> But the OP postulates that through force of state having safety criteria restaurants must advertise is a systemic benefit to the food service industry, and if it actually was, then restaurants everywhere would naturally adopt it if it increases consumer participation and revenues.

You seem to treat that as an article of faith. In particular, you come across to me as a free-market fundamentalist. The creed seems to be something like: If a market does it, it's good; if a market doesn't do it, then it's definitionally not good. I've learned never to argue with fundamentalists, as they're impossible to convince.

Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>take some rich people's money And there lies the rub. So the wealthy man can take advantage of start-up investing, but the government in its infinite wisdom, forbids the middle-class man from doing the same under penalty of imprisonment for the person offering the security.

Yes, it is truly a moral imperative that we allow people who can't afford to be ripped off access to the same "investment opportunities" as people who can. Freeeeeeeedom!

I'd argue that those sort of investments would be better gated by knowledge than available finances. There's no reason a early employ that made <$1m in a buyout shouldn't be allowed to invest 10k in another startup. He absolutely knows what he's investing in, and it's his choice if he's willing to take that risk.

Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>take some rich people's money And there lies the rub. So the wealthy man can take advantage of start-up investing, but the government in its infinite wisdom, forbids the middle-class man from doing the same under penalty of imprisonment for the person offering the security.

Yes, it is truly a moral imperative that we allow people who can't afford to be ripped off access to the same "investment opportunities" as people who can. Freeeeeeeedom!

We let them get payday loans and credit card debt, but when it comes to something that is generally in their best interest, we must step in and save them from themselves?

Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#75
post #15

So what happens when somebody doesn't secure the private keys to their Overstock shares well enough? A hacker steals your Overstock shares, and now they own them? What happens if someone steals the shares from the CEO? Obviously the hacker could never make use of those shares or else they would get caught. In a system like this, it can't be truly decentralized, can it?

You could make the same argument with paper money and I think the result would be similar. Theft might be a big issue, but that doesn't mean the system won't work.

Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#76
post #72
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works in that given example. Of course if you invent an arbitrary number it holds no value. But the OP postulates that through force of state having safety criteria restaurants must advertise is a systemic benefit to the food service industry, and if it actually was , then restaurants everywhere would naturally adopt it if it increases consumer participation and revenues. More than anything I'm trying to indicate…

This statement troubles me: > But the OP postulates that through force of state having safety criteria restaurants must advertise is a systemic benefit to the food service industry, and if it actually was, then restaurants everywhere would naturally adopt it if it increases consumer participation and revenues. You seem to treat that as an article of faith. In particular, you come across to me as a free-market fundame…

Things that are counter to the market can absolutely be good for individuals. I'm just saying that you would not see the entire food service industry improve from the perspective of the retailers themselves through mandates and regulation if that mandated behavior were not inherently beneficial and as such would be practiced in the absence of such regulation.

Simplied question: if it is beneficial to restaurants to be forced to conform to food safety guidelines, inspections, and public ratings, it would stand to reason restaurants would naturally seek to self regulate and have their own common rating board if doing so attracted more business than it cost them to maintain said ratings.

Obviously it does not, since restaurants do not naturally do that. I'm not saying the idea of food safety mandates is good or not, I'm just saying the industry would implement it themselves if it was fiscally beneficial to the restaurants. And since it is not, that implies their rates are higher, they are less competitive as a result, and that consumers are paying for something they (in a natural market) were not willing to fork money over to see happen naturally (by way of not favoring publicly rated restaurants).

Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#77

check the overstock's original website, after few seconds it was evident that I shouldn't be bothered reading the article.

I'm confused by what that might mean.

I think izelnakri is saying that overstock.com is poorly made and concludes that they will not be successful in this new project. (I disagree)

Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#78
post #76
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement troubles me: > But the OP postulates that through force of state having safety criteria restaurants must advertise is a systemic benefit to the food service industry, and if it actually was, then restaurants everywhere would naturally adopt it if it increases consumer participation and revenues. You seem to treat that as an article of faith. In particular, you come across to me as a free-market fundame…

Things that are counter to the market can absolutely be good for individuals. I'm just saying that you would not see the entire food service industry improve from the perspective of the retailers themselves through mandates and regulation if that mandated behavior were not inherently beneficial and as such would be practiced in the absence of such regulation. Simplied question: if it is beneficial to restaurants to b…

Your simplified question isn't actually a question. But if it were, my answer would be "no". There are many ways in which that could not be true.

For example, as I already mentioned, public food safety ratings benefit new market entrants more than they do existing restaurants. Ergo, every existing restaurateur might oppose them (or at least decline to pay for them).

Another possible reason: dominant players benefit the least from public health ratings (because they already have a large established clientele and good word of mouth), but they are the ones with the largest surplus for things like this. So it might not happen because dominant players wouldn't work to make it happen. They might even oppose it.

Or another: humans have many known cognitive biases, including ones toward competition and zero-sum thinking. Perhaps prominent restaurateurs would oppose regulations that would benefit everybody because they would focus on benefit to competitors.

Or another: restaurateurs are very busy people, or perhaps very focused people, and so wouldn't have sufficient time or awareness to understand the benefits of a scheme like this.

Or another: even if they actually stand to benefit on average, individual restaurant owners might fear exposure of health issues, and would rather keep things quiet just in case (the loss aversion bias).

Or another: the costs of the program are short-term and obvious, but the benefits of the program appear speculative and/or long term, and nobody is willing to take the risk or take the short-term loss.

Or another: the program might not pay for itself purely in terms of increased restaurant business profits. However, it does pay for itself when health costs and human suffering are taken into account. In other worse, restaurants wouldn't do it because making people sick is a negative externality.

Or another: maybe nobody has gotten around to it yet. There are plenty of things that businesses do now that they didn't do at one point. Not because market conditions were different, but because things take time. Actual humans have to actually think of the idea and then get a lot of other actual humans to make it happen.

So off the top of my head, that's, what, eight holes in your argument from orthodox free-market dogma. Presumably an economist with relevant experience could find more, as could a public health expert or a restaurant owner.

Markets are a fine technology for accomplishing particular purposes. But like any real technology, they have practical limits and known failure modes. Which should be unsurprising given that they are implemented on people, who are rational to about the same extent that cows are spherical. [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow

Re: Overstock.com Assembles Coders to Create a Bitcoin-Like Stock Market

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused by what that might mean.

I think izelnakri is saying that overstock.com is poorly made and concludes that they will not be successful in this new project. (I disagree)

Got it. Thanks.
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