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Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

sile-typesetter.org

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Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#71
post #41
post #13

I have looked at the PDF manual linked to from the homepage. If that PDF is produced bye Sile itself, I'm not impressed because the rendered text looks crowded. Perhaps the choice of the font is at fault, perhaps the engine lacks TeX's font kerning, perhaps.. Whatever the reason, the output is IMO ugly.

For a trivial but high-visibility example, the very first two paragraphs of the document have "orphaned" words on the last line--a big typographical no-no. In the first paragraph, the orphaned word is "of". If there's no way to squeeze those three characters ("of.") into the preceding lines then one should probably be a little more generous with the character spacing in the second line so that the "of." doesn't look…

Well, they claim that is splits line just like TEX, so maybe it was just an unfortunate mix of wording and font.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#73

So, essentially, this is a rewrite for TeX. But the reality is that creating complex layouts really, truly requires GUI layout tools. No matter how good the output is for this application, it's entering into an firmly-established market with a few, large, expensive players, and not a lot of action. Publishing automation tools are nothing new, but one has to give up a certain amount (usually a lot) of control to creat…

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Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#74
post #24

News@11: Haphazard rewrite of popular standard piece of software in random scripting language X revolutionizes the field, says naive programmer.

While you're being more hyperbolic than most HN readers will like, I tend to agree with your point and wish you'd made it without the barbs.

This package is not even a rewrite, but the implementation of a tiny, tiny subset of TeX. In addition, I've always understood (and followed this rule in my OSS work) that you don't point out weaknesses in other OSS projects as justification for your own. Apart from it being bad form, it doesn't help promote the project.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#75
I've worked in typesetting software a long time. And I've seen several OSS projects reach roughly the point this one has before dying. I can recall only one or two that made it significantly past this point. The challenge is not the coding but the domain problems. It's easy to get a core set of features with very basic operations going. But pushing on into the required capabilities for more than markdown-level formatting is very, very difficult. The issues are mirages, b/c they appear easy to explain, but they're extremely difficult to implement.

For example, footnotes. We all understand how footnotes should be placed--right there at the bottom of the page. However, placement become very difficult if you have a long footnote that appears in the before-last-line of the page. Now, if you include the footnote, there's not enough room for the last few lines of regular text, and the footnoted word is bumped to the next page. Figuring out how to get out of this one problem algorithmically involves heavy-duty backtracking work, projections of layout, recalculations, etc. Its difficulty is compounded if other factors enter in. For example, if the text and footnote appear just before a full page image, etc.

Another classic difficulty is widow and orphan control. Knuth's algorithm on this topic alone requires almost 100 pages to explain [Digital Typography, 1999].

And so on. Suffice it to say that Donald Knuth spent 10 years writing TeX, much of which he did full-time, supported by various grants.

Typesetting is a really, really hard problem domain and while the author here expects to add features like equations soon, to those of us in the field, it feels like he doesn't really grok the difficulty of the problem domain.

The odds are small that he can climb the cliff in front of him unless he's willing to work on this full time for a very long time.

Nonetheless, I wish him good luck.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#76
post #40

I would like to see some comparison of DocBook and SILE too. Any reasons for using SILE instead of DocBook? The simpler syntax on its own is good, but not enough to switch.

How is Pollen ( http://pollenpub.com/ ) coming along? Have there been any more books written using it, apart from Butterick’s Practical Typography ( http://practicaltypography.com/ )?

Pollen is still in development -- I've been playing with it, and reported a trivial (and now fixed) bug that probably hadn't come up because I was the first person to typeset dialogue with it. Many of my current quibbles with it could be addressed with a "cookbook" of recipes, or even a library that can play the role of LaTeX to its TeX, although that's probably longer term.

Having said that, though, Pollen's tackling a different problem space; SILE is aiming for print and not web, as near as I can tell.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#78
post #24

News@11: Haphazard rewrite of popular standard piece of software in random scripting language X revolutionizes the field, says naive programmer.

For people that have used the TeX macro language for a long time and have great comfort with it I think it is difficult to grasp how difficult that language is to learn/use even for someone fluent in many other languages. The difficulty of using the TeX macro language is even greater if you have the misfortune of needing to use it, wait several months, repeat.

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#79
post #69
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about SILE, but for TeX, the algorithm determining the line breaks was exponential in the length of the document. Even on a modern machine, a moderately complex document will take a few seconds to run; in the 80s and 90s, my professors told me it'd take minutes to run a TeX pass. The reason why Google Docs / Word / etc. can show the line breaks in real time is that it uses a faster (but less "optimal") a…

Great, this is the type of answer I was looking for. Can you supply or point to more details please? E.g. what is the optimal line-breaks algorithm used for Tex, and what and how much is the negative impact of the less optimal one? Thanks

I'd start by reading through the links on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_wrap#Knuth.27s_algorithm

Re: Sile, a typesetting system inspired by TeX and InDesign

#80
post #24

News@11: Haphazard rewrite of popular standard piece of software in random scripting language X revolutionizes the field, says naive programmer.

While you're being more hyperbolic than most HN readers will like, I tend to agree with your point and wish you'd made it without the barbs. This package is not even a rewrite, but the implementation of a tiny, tiny subset of TeX. In addition, I've always understood (and followed this rule in my OSS work) that you don't point out weaknesses in other OSS projects as justification for your own. Apart from it being bad…

Due to its very nature I dont take anonymous internet typing too serious and sometimes I like hyperbole to start of a conversation because it cuts right through to the core bits. I totally agree with you though about talking bad about the project you literally just stole verbatim code from (text layout algo).
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