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Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

nytimes.com

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Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#71

Post by dismal2 »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #52

Israel's Arab civilian's regularly attempt to blow themselves up in public places (believe me, I've stopped a few on them myself). Meanwhile the Palestinians gleefully lob rockets at populated cities in Israel. Of course Israel would want to monitor them as much as possible, and corroborate with the NSA to get as much data as possible. If that monitoring saved YOUR child from getting blown up on a bus, wouldn't you s…

You make it sound like Israel is just a victim here, getting terrorized, when in fact they have the Palestinians sequestered into ghettos and denied basic human rights like food, water, medicine. The violence is a symptom on inhumane treatment, not simply the cause of "evil doers".

I won't even being to respond to your sensationalized argument about saving children being a justification for mass invasion of privacy with no oversight.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#72

Post by [deleted] »

dismal2 wrote: post #71
bengrunfeld wrote: post #52

Israel's Arab civilian's regularly attempt to blow themselves up in public places (believe me, I've stopped a few on them myself). Meanwhile the Palestinians gleefully lob rockets at populated cities in Israel. Of course Israel would want to monitor them as much as possible, and corroborate with the NSA to get as much data as possible. If that monitoring saved YOUR child from getting blown up on a bus, wouldn't you s…

You make it sound like Israel is just a victim here, getting terrorized, when in fact they have the Palestinians sequestered into ghettos and denied basic human rights like food, water, medicine. The violence is a symptom on inhumane treatment, not simply the cause of "evil doers". I won't even being to respond to your sensationalized argument about saving children being a justification for mass invasion of privacy w…

[deleted]

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#73

Post by bengrunfeld »

bediger4000 wrote: post #68
conover wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you object to this type of surveillance then you prefer your children to be blown up by suicide bombers?

Wait - how many suicide bombers have there been in the USA over the weekend? I've not read the papers or watched tee vee since last Friday. Geez, what pests those suicide bombers are!

They fundraise from America, have schools and training centers in America, collaborate on PR projects, planning, etc... I could really go on and on here....

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#74

Post by BugBrother »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #63
BugBrother wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most every democracy with serious and continuing problems with terrorism throw out the law book and human rights. Afaik, this goes for USA, Britain, Israel, Germany, Spain and Italy. And probably more cases. (Note " continuing problems ". e.g. Breivik was a lone crazy.) The reason is shown by the grandparent comment; terrorism is optimized to scare voters. And politicians are scared of hysterical voters, they need to…

I've went through 9 terrorist attacks in Israel before I joined the military - I lived in downtown Jerusalem during the Second Intifada. In the other countries, you're right - there is no excuse for getting rid of personal rights and freedoms, but in Israel the sheer number of terrorist attacks cause the reality to be different. If we didn't have the intel, we could never stop the terrorists, and that is simply unacc…

Israel do have everything on a different scale; multiples of times more terror against its civilians than what the rest of the western world have -- combined.

Afaik, despite this the courts in Israel seems to better keep up rule of law than the US ones, re terrorism... Which is sad.

But I think that without terror problems, the situation would be very different in Israel. And you probably agree.

Edit: I think you missed my point a little. I didn't discuss if it is right to throw out freedoms or not, I noted that empirically democracies seems to be very likely to do that in a certain situation.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#75

Post by bengrunfeld »

mkawia wrote: post #64
bengrunfeld wrote: post #52

Israel's Arab civilian's regularly attempt to blow themselves up in public places (believe me, I've stopped a few on them myself). Meanwhile the Palestinians gleefully lob rockets at populated cities in Israel. Of course Israel would want to monitor them as much as possible, and corroborate with the NSA to get as much data as possible. If that monitoring saved YOUR child from getting blown up on a bus, wouldn't you s…

Don't think the solution to people who is to monitor these people or atleast not entirely. You make it sound like the just out of nowhere choose to blow themselves ,like it's in the DNA . There's an atmosphere of hate and oppression ,as long as that exists ,there will always be terrorist. No amount of spying will solve that ,9/11 was planned by a bunch of guys in a basement . Data mining my porno history won't stop g…

So on a hike once with my unit, a bedouin who was irrigating his field with a tractor simply turned it on us and tried to run us down. He failed, miserably I might add, but it proves the point that Arabs will often attack Jews with no advance warning. There are many more example of this.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#76

Post by [deleted] »

conover wrote: post #56
bengrunfeld wrote: post #52

Israel's Arab civilian's regularly attempt to blow themselves up in public places (believe me, I've stopped a few on them myself). Meanwhile the Palestinians gleefully lob rockets at populated cities in Israel. Of course Israel would want to monitor them as much as possible, and corroborate with the NSA to get as much data as possible. If that monitoring saved YOUR child from getting blown up on a bus, wouldn't you s…

So if you object to this type of surveillance then you prefer your children to be blown up by suicide bombers?

[deleted]

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#78

Post by BugBrother »

dismal2 wrote: post #71
bengrunfeld wrote: post #52

Israel's Arab civilian's regularly attempt to blow themselves up in public places (believe me, I've stopped a few on them myself). Meanwhile the Palestinians gleefully lob rockets at populated cities in Israel. Of course Israel would want to monitor them as much as possible, and corroborate with the NSA to get as much data as possible. If that monitoring saved YOUR child from getting blown up on a bus, wouldn't you s…

You make it sound like Israel is just a victim here, getting terrorized, when in fact they have the Palestinians sequestered into ghettos and denied basic human rights like food, water, medicine. The violence is a symptom on inhumane treatment, not simply the cause of "evil doers". I won't even being to respond to your sensationalized argument about saving children being a justification for mass invasion of privacy w…

I think that the borders with Gaza and the West Bank were very open, people commuted and travelled to buy stuff etc. After the second Intifada, the stops went up to hinder very common attacks on civilians. This stopped a quite integrated economy -- and caused problems on the Israeli side, too.

(I am no expert, I follow the subject just to find out how non-serious my native Swedish media are. So I'm probably pro-Israel, since I literally look for the stuff censored from Swedish media. You seem like you should learn Swedish? :-) )

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#79

Post by rrggrr »

This was not a one-sided trade. You can be sure the NSA received similar feeds from Israel on targets of great interest to US national interests. The inherent problem in these NSA debates is the inability of the NSA or policy makers to give the American people believable metrics that describe the value received for the effort. Could it be the US received important intel in return for its feeds? Yes. By not articulating a believable ROI on collection or sharing its looks increasingly like there wasn't one.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#80

Post by geographomics »

jostmey wrote: post #37

I think this is the most damning leak to date. There is no justification for freely giving information to Israel. And the part about people's porn habits being tracked is even scarier. That could be used to discredit virtually anyone (well, any male at least). Who hasn't visited an embarrassing porn website at least once in their life ? Now imagine your name being publicly associated with that website.

Surely one could just deny any such assertions on their pornographic habits (or other embarrassing information)?

Anything that would be claimed as proof could just as well be a collection of manufactured lies rather than leaked truth.

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