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“The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

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Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#71

Post by parasubvert »

grondilu wrote: post #35
parasubvert wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not. The usability of such an approach is terrible: humans like names, and like hierarchy. This is the same reason we use DNS instead of IP addresses. There was URN https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Name many moons ago that is still used. A URN resolver is a software library that could convert that identifier to a URL. URLs aren't much different from URNs but they act…

> humans like names, and like hierarchy. They do, but that does not mean there should not be other ways to access data. Hashes are universal and unambiguous. There should be a way to retrieve a file given its hash. > You could create a URL scheme called "hash" but it would be hard to see how you could design a standard resolver unless it was one big centralized hash table in the sky - you still would need to, at the…

> Hashes are universal and unambiguous. There should be a way to retrieve a file given its hash.

I'm not sure you've thought through the complexity of what you're asking for.

Hashes require (a) a hash function everyone agrees to, (b) a way to resolve them to an IP address.

Unless you synchronized all global hashes across the Internet on everyone's computer (the git hashed project model -- which we know doesn't scale beyond a certain point unless you bucket things into independent hashes you care about), you'd basically have to do something like Hash://ip_address/bucket/hash or hash://bucket/hash if you want to give a monopoly to one IP address that manages giant hash in the sky

Which is back to URLs and HTTP, and no different from say Amazon S3

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#72

Post by adamnemecek »

pjmlp wrote: post #69
adamnemecek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I was confused by the word 'recent', which to me means the last 2-3 years.

A few items on my list cover your 'recent'. Decision to move Windows to C++ was announced by Herb Sutter in one of his Microsoft talks and the Windows 8 DDK was the first to support C++ in kernel code. JPL going C++ was covered at their CppCon 2014 talk. GCC switched to C++ as implementation language in 2012. In any case, I would say, all languages with native code compilers can be used in relation to energy efficien…

True. Facebook has also been doubling down on C++ development it seems.

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#73

Post by lifeisstillgood »

I am lucky enough to work in a "internal open source environment" - I can and do search the whole code base for a major Fortune 500 daily for pieces that fit my needs. And I often find them - but the process of getting it refactored to fit my exact needs (and so improving their code and the overall reduction in entropy) is mostly impossible - because of humans No one is really willing to change someone else's code without talking to them, agreeing, getting past thier "yes I have tests but if you change it then I don't really know ..."

It's a fundamental problem - good well maintained tests help but this is cultural not technical problem.

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#74

Post by lifeisstillgood »

_prometheus wrote: post #36

Joe and I are thinking similarly :D I'm going to dump some ideas here. --- # JRFC 27 - Hyper Modular Programming System (moving it over to https://github.com/jbenet/random-ideas/issues/27 ) Over the last six months I've crossed that dark threshold where the desire of building a programming language has become an appealing idea. Terrifyingly, I _might_ actually build this some day. Well, not a language, a programming…

Yes. And Yes. I doubt that our conception of these things will be in use in twenty years - but I do think that assisting the process of taking an idea and putting into production (process of programming) is going to be more and more a feature of our world.

It allows for bringing up the worst ten percent of code without limiting the top ten. It is far far better than the Java idea of making it hard to shoot your foot off with the language.

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#75

Post by fizixer »

_prometheus wrote: post #36

Joe and I are thinking similarly :D I'm going to dump some ideas here. --- # JRFC 27 - Hyper Modular Programming System (moving it over to https://github.com/jbenet/random-ideas/issues/27 ) Over the last six months I've crossed that dark threshold where the desire of building a programming language has become an appealing idea. Terrifyingly, I _might_ actually build this some day. Well, not a language, a programming…

Interesting. I had an idea similar to the first part of your comment, in which 'reinventing-the-wheel', everytime you start to write a new program, is avoided by 'autocompleting your code' based on the vast database of open source projects on the internet. If a programmer starts writing a code that declares some variables and opens a for loop, the smart editor starts searching the open source projects and lists the code chunks with beginnings most resembling what you've typed so far, and then you can pick one of those if you like, or keep writing. I haven't thought of what could be done afterwards though.

I tend to think it also has connections with a recent discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8308881

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#76

Post by dcre »

This was definitely not one of the better talks of the conference (though I was embarrassed to say so given the way people [rightly] idolize Armstrong), so I highly recommend checking out the rest: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_QIfHvN9auy2CoOdSfMWDw/vid...

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#77

Post by pjmlp »

adamnemecek wrote: post #72
pjmlp wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few items on my list cover your 'recent'. Decision to move Windows to C++ was announced by Herb Sutter in one of his Microsoft talks and the Windows 8 DDK was the first to support C++ in kernel code. JPL going C++ was covered at their CppCon 2014 talk. GCC switched to C++ as implementation language in 2012. In any case, I would say, all languages with native code compilers can be used in relation to energy efficien…

True. Facebook has also been doubling down on C++ development it seems.

There is a talk from Andrei Alexandrescu at Going Native 2013 where he mentions one of Facebook KPIs is request per watt.

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#78

Post by oakwhiz »

grondilu wrote: post #35
parasubvert wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not. The usability of such an approach is terrible: humans like names, and like hierarchy. This is the same reason we use DNS instead of IP addresses. There was URN https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Name many moons ago that is still used. A URN resolver is a software library that could convert that identifier to a URL. URLs aren't much different from URNs but they act…

> humans like names, and like hierarchy. They do, but that does not mean there should not be other ways to access data. Hashes are universal and unambiguous. There should be a way to retrieve a file given its hash. > You could create a URL scheme called "hash" but it would be hard to see how you could design a standard resolver unless it was one big centralized hash table in the sky - you still would need to, at the…

BitTorrent magnet links already kind of do this.

Theoretically speaking, isn't it possible to create a virtual BitTorrent FUSE filesystem?

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#79

Post by akkartik »

_prometheus wrote: post #36

Joe and I are thinking similarly :D I'm going to dump some ideas here. --- # JRFC 27 - Hyper Modular Programming System (moving it over to https://github.com/jbenet/random-ideas/issues/27 ) Over the last six months I've crossed that dark threshold where the desire of building a programming language has become an appealing idea. Terrifyingly, I _might_ actually build this some day. Well, not a language, a programming…

"The first thing you do is write the (mandatory) doc comment describing what it does, and the type signature. As you write, your editor suggests lists of functions published to the web that match what you're typing."

As a concrete example, if I say (picking a syntax at random; underscore denotes where my cursor is):

  add :: int -> int -> int
  def add(a, b)
    """add two numbers"""
    _
and if the permanent web contains two functions:

  proj1_add :: int -> int -> int
  def proj1_add(a, b)
    """returns sum of arguments"""
    a+b

  proj2_sub :: int -> int -> int
  def proj2_sub(a, b)
    """returns difference between a and b"""
    a-b
Would you envision your system "matching" both or just the first? If just the first, on what basis do you imagine figuring this out?

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#80

Post by _prometheus »

akkartik wrote: post #79
_prometheus wrote: post #36

Joe and I are thinking similarly :D I'm going to dump some ideas here. --- # JRFC 27 - Hyper Modular Programming System (moving it over to https://github.com/jbenet/random-ideas/issues/27 ) Over the last six months I've crossed that dark threshold where the desire of building a programming language has become an appealing idea. Terrifyingly, I _might_ actually build this some day. Well, not a language, a programming…

"The first thing you do is write the (mandatory) doc comment describing what it does, and the type signature. As you write, your editor suggests lists of functions published to the web that match what you're typing." As a concrete example, if I say (picking a syntax at random; underscore denotes where my cursor is): add :: int -> int -> int def add(a, b) """add two numbers""" _ and if the permanent web contains two f…

Just the first. on the strings "sum", "add", and potentially on the symbolic operation `args[0]+args[1]`.
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