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We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

m.us.wsj.com

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Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#71

Post by spectre256 »

al2o3cr wrote: post #64

"Microsoft believes you own emails stored in the cloud, and that they have the same privacy protection as paper letters sent by mail" Clarification: Microsoft now believes this (or claims to). They had no problem handing PRISM the keys to the kingdom while it was still secret. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-c...

While it's understandable to feel down about the fact that Microsoft used to feel it was ok to hand over emails, there's a more positive way to look at it: this article is strong evidence that the public opinion regarding online privacy has changed such that, were Microsoft to give up these emails, it's own business would suffer negatively.

It's not a signal of the end of our battle for privacy, but it's something.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#72

Post by josho »

pappyo wrote: post #54
rayiner wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A physical letter in a rented mailbox is also generally not data-mined for the commercial purposes of the service provider. I think cloud companies essentially want the 4th amendment benefits of treating the cloud like real world private areas (e.g. bank lock boxes), without any of the obligations that come along with that. The "reasonable expectation of privacy" in things like safe deposit boxes or storage units is…

>they want the 4th amendment benefits of treating the cloud like real world private areas (e.g. bank lock boxes), without any of the obligations that come along with that. and... >That said, I think they're ultimately going to win. Warning: Total Conspiracy Theory Ahead Could this be an end-around by Microsoft to eliminate one of Google's main revenue streams? Follow me for a second. 1. Let's assume Microsoft wins th…

I think you give Microsoft too much credit. But, you correctly identified the importance of this case.

Interestingly, I predict that if your outcome were to happen then Google will rapidly invest in Gmail to turn it into more than an email system, so that they'd have reason to argue that the messages are business records.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#73

Post by Squarel »

sophacles wrote: post #65
rayiner wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A physical letter in a rented mailbox is also generally not data-mined for the commercial purposes of the service provider. I think cloud companies essentially want the 4th amendment benefits of treating the cloud like real world private areas (e.g. bank lock boxes), without any of the obligations that come along with that. The "reasonable expectation of privacy" in things like safe deposit boxes or storage units is…

Does anyone know the case law for services that filter a person's mail for them? E.G if I employ a service that will open mail for me to weed out the junk and send me the good stuff, do my letters become business records? What if I also employ them to (going a step further), pay any bills that come in from my bank account? I think that this line has already been drawn. Tangential question: since the Supreme Court rec…

I do not know how it works in the US, but in many countries, you can already opt out of receiving junk mail through your letterbox.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#74

Post by rayiner »

arebop wrote: post #53
rayiner wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A physical letter in a rented mailbox is also generally not data-mined for the commercial purposes of the service provider. I think cloud companies essentially want the 4th amendment benefits of treating the cloud like real world private areas (e.g. bank lock boxes), without any of the obligations that come along with that. The "reasonable expectation of privacy" in things like safe deposit boxes or storage units is…

So cloud companies that want to preserve user's rights w/r/t to user data and doing email should not be able to do spam detection? Should they be able to adjust the markup in HTML emails such that the composition of emails into the web UI does not compromise the well-formed-ness of the page? Should they not be able to provide a "search" feature to locate emails that are relevant to a user's query? These sorts of thin…

At the end of the day, the lynchpin of the 4th amendment is an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy. Not merely a subjective desire that the government not see certain information.

With that in mind, I just don't see how you can say you have an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy over e-mails in the cloud, when a system operator can pull up all your personal information going back years at the touch of a button. When the e-mail service not only has incidental access to the data, but actively looks into that "private" data and uses that "private" data for commercial purposes. It's a distorted, results-oriented definition of "privacy."

That said, you're likely going to get precisely that results-oriented interpretation, because apparently the Supreme Court, like most users, doesn't fully understand the scope of how cloud providers access and use and commercialize your data.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#76

Post by watwut »

rayiner wrote: post #74
arebop wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So cloud companies that want to preserve user's rights w/r/t to user data and doing email should not be able to do spam detection? Should they be able to adjust the markup in HTML emails such that the composition of emails into the web UI does not compromise the well-formed-ness of the page? Should they not be able to provide a "search" feature to locate emails that are relevant to a user's query? These sorts of thin…

At the end of the day, the lynchpin of the 4th amendment is an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy. Not merely a subjective desire that the government not see certain information. With that in mind, I just don't see how you can say you have an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy over e-mails in the cloud, when a system operator can pull up all your personal information going back years at the touc…

How is that different from regular mail? Any postman can open the mail, copy/read the content and then close envelope. It is maybe 5 minutes of work.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#77

Post by nfoz »

lisper wrote: post #10
codazoda wrote: post #4

Paywall? I'm out.

You might want to reconsider posting comments like that. You may think you're making a principled stand against the evils of paywalls (aside: how do you expect online publications to stay in business?) but in fact all you're doing is advertising the fact that you're either too lazy or too stupid to take the trivial steps required to get around one.

I appreciated the comment because I do not want to bother navigating to a paywall'd page. And I'd be happy if these publications didn't stay in business.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#78

Post by lisper »

nfoz wrote: post #77
lisper wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to reconsider posting comments like that. You may think you're making a principled stand against the evils of paywalls (aside: how do you expect online publications to stay in business?) but in fact all you're doing is advertising the fact that you're either too lazy or too stupid to take the trivial steps required to get around one.

I appreciated the comment because I do not want to bother navigating to a paywall'd page. And I'd be happy if these publications didn't stay in business.

What do you mean by "these publications"? Do you want any on-line publications to stay in business, and if so, how do you expect them to support themselves?

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#79

Post by digisign »

rayiner wrote: post #74
arebop wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So cloud companies that want to preserve user's rights w/r/t to user data and doing email should not be able to do spam detection? Should they be able to adjust the markup in HTML emails such that the composition of emails into the web UI does not compromise the well-formed-ness of the page? Should they not be able to provide a "search" feature to locate emails that are relevant to a user's query? These sorts of thin…

At the end of the day, the lynchpin of the 4th amendment is an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy. Not merely a subjective desire that the government not see certain information. With that in mind, I just don't see how you can say you have an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy over e-mails in the cloud, when a system operator can pull up all your personal information going back years at the touc…

While I wouldn't expect much privacy from the provider holding my email, I would expect privacy from the government ... assuming there wasn't a warrant to access it.

Re: We're Fighting the Feds Over Your Email

#80

Post by rayiner »

watwut wrote: post #76
rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day, the lynchpin of the 4th amendment is an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy. Not merely a subjective desire that the government not see certain information. With that in mind, I just don't see how you can say you have an objectively reasonable expectation of privacy over e-mails in the cloud, when a system operator can pull up all your personal information going back years at the touc…

How is that different from regular mail? Any postman can open the mail, copy/read the content and then close envelope. It is maybe 5 minutes of work.

Its different because not only do mailmen not open mail as a matter of course, for advertising or operational purposes, its a felony to do so.
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