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U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

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Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#71

Post by winter_blue »

ak217 wrote: post #62
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

This isn't a zero sum game for you and the H-1B visa holders. The H-1B and other skilled labor visas select for individuals who are intelligent, mobile, and entrepreneurial. Those individuals and their families are here temporarily unless they can secure a green card (a tremendously difficult process that requires limiting their employment choices, handicapping them in their earning potential compared to you). Most A…

> Most Americans expressing your sentiment have no idea how much hassle immigrants have to go through in this process or every time they cross the border.

Exactly. Most Americans don't seem to know how incredibly hard it is to immigrate to this country. They think it's as easy today as it was for their ancestors who came here a hundred years or so ago.

The fact is, if you are not seeking refugee or asylee status, and if don't have close family (a parent, sibling, or child) in the US, it is incredibly fucking hard to immigrate here.

Most of the rest of the immigrants, in the Employment-Based Green Card quotas go through a process that starts with them entering the U.S. on an H-1B or an L-1, and then doing work of such high quality that the employer may be persuaded into going through the arduous process of securing him/her a green card.

In my opinion what we're seeing here is just the plain old anti-immigrant fear mongering that been around since a very long time -- except that instead of bitching about Irish laborers pushing down wages in the low-income segment, it's about how smart, highly-skilled, college-educated immigrants are "destroying" the American economy and culture.

On one level, it's stupid -- because these people actually contribute to the economy. On another level, it's plain old die-hard racism cloaked in a fable about job-theft. If you disagree on the race part, just run through some comment threads on this topic, and invariably there are many whose concerns have more to do with the fact that the would-be immigrant is of Indian (or some other foreign) heritage, rather than their claim about how he or she "stole" their job...

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#72

Post by maxerickson »

winter_blue wrote: post #68
maxerickson wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H-1B is explicitly temporary. It might be a way to get your feet on the ground here, but it simply is not intended to be part of a path to citizenship.

I meant a pathway to immigrate to the United States. Yes, the H-1B is non-immgirant visa. My point was that if you want to immigrate (i.e. get a green card) based on your skills, the pathway (toward gaining permanent residency) in most cases involves getting an H-1B or L-1 first. Most of these workers strongly desire to immigrate to the Untied States on a permanent basis, and the truly skilled ones (I'm not talking a…

My mistake on immigrate vs citizenship. It doesn't really change the point that the H-1B was created to be temporary.

(And certainly the temporary status factors into the fact that they exist and how many are granted and all of that stuff. FWIW, I think the U.S. immigration policy is a disaster, we should be letting far more people in and looking for ways that we can help to improve the situation in Central America (because presumably that will reduce the most common sort of illegal entry).)

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#73

Post by humanrebar »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #46
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

As a computing specialist who makes a very generous income from a large US employer, I am an expert in a specific technology. I've also been in the position of trying to hire developers with similar skill sets. As a result, I might bring a slightly different perspective. I am a US citizen. As you point out, I don't need to dress "business casual" and I can (and do) work remotely, and the pay is good. But in some spec…

> I hear stories of developers making $500k+ per year, or getting job offers worth millions. At that level, then yes, I think we could stand to see a bit of downward pressure on salaries.

Why? If some developer jobs are as hard as brain surgery, why shouldn't those developers be paid as much as brain surgeons?

Not capping wages also encourages employers to rethink their employment strategies. Maybe that sort of employee should be promoted to partner. Or maybe longer-term contracts should be signed to so that employers can expect a reasonable payback from helping the employee over the learning curve. Or maybe they can rethink their development process to allow more remote workers (thereby increasing the talent pool to draw from).

If developers are scarce, the solution is to allow wages to rise and let the businesses figure out how to compensate.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#74

Post by Daishiman »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #46
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

As a computing specialist who makes a very generous income from a large US employer, I am an expert in a specific technology. I've also been in the position of trying to hire developers with similar skill sets. As a result, I might bring a slightly different perspective. I am a US citizen. As you point out, I don't need to dress "business casual" and I can (and do) work remotely, and the pay is good. But in some spec…

> At that level, then yes, I think we could stand to see a bit of downward pressure on salaries.

Why??

If you're a lawyer specializing in sovereign debt restructuring and charge $2000 an hour, we don't hear about downward salary pressure.

I've never heard anyone complaining that petroleum engineers are too expensive, even if it takes them a Master's degree and an extremely costly speciality to understand their profession.

If we're playing the all-out capitalist game, then as a salaried employee you should go for all the leverage you've got, because your employers are doing the same through these and similar maneuvers.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#75

Post by nemothekid »

sdenton4 wrote: post #69
SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a computing specialist who makes a very generous income from a large US employer, I am an expert in a specific technology. I've also been in the position of trying to hire developers with similar skill sets. As a result, I might bring a slightly different perspective. I am a US citizen. As you point out, I don't need to dress "business casual" and I can (and do) work remotely, and the pay is good. But in some spec…

There's far less emphasis on in-house training for specific skills than there once was. My mother, for anecdata, came out of a computer science program in the mid eighties with her education financed by her employer. Companies today don't see employees as long-term investments, and that's one of the prime reasons for the lack of people with the specific skills that those companies need. Highly specific skill sets are…

>My mother, for anecdata, came out of a computer science program in the mid eighties with her education financed by her employer.

I don't believe thats a 100% apt comparison. In the 80s, tuition at MIT, a private school, was less than 10k/yr (according to wikipedia). Considering to do the same now would cost nearly 5-6x as much, its no surprise that corporations haven't continued those programs.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#76

Post by ntakasaki »

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

>If they did then the average Wal-Mart worker would be making a lot more and have much better benefits.

But tech people seem quite okay with buying things made in China, and third world countries. When was the last time someone bought a router that was 40% more expensive but made in the USA? How many of the people who upvoted your comment made it the top comment ever check for a Made in USA sticker for their clothes or furniture even if it was expensive? Screw the low skilled compatriots so that you can afford higher spec MacBook and a Starbucks coffee, right?

Google/Motorola learnt the above lesson very fast with the Moto X which was assembled in the US and now that facility is closed because of bad sales inspite of a big advertising campaign.

So tech workers take full advantage of everything else becoming a commodity and now want to prevent the global tech labor supply affecting their already comparatively high wages so that computing/software stays expensive for the rest of society?

Next up, restrict open source software and remote work from other countries so that there is more work for tech workers and wages stay high?

Won't artificially high salaries affect startups, where a few thousand bucks can easily kill a promising startup that needs time to grow?

Restricting H1B visas will increase offshoring, which means the folks won't be paying local taxes in the US including State Unemployment, Social Security and Medicare taxes(they're not eligible for benefits though).

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#77

Post by crdoconnor »

DINKDINK wrote: post #55
crdoconnor wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened i…

>H1-Bs are the very antithesis of freedom Laws restrict freedom, that's their entire point. Whether a society, political ideology etc deems those limitations in freedom necessary is a different story. Visas put a wedge in the law to allow someone to work at a business. Global immigration laws prevent people/workers from moving freely to other areas of economic opportunity. By making immigration controls more restrict…

>Laws restrict freedom, that's their entire point.

The point of laws is to ideally balance freedom and security. You are not free to rip me off because doing THAT infringes upon my freedom/security.

In the case of H1-Bs there is nothing gained by restricting workers' freedom to switch jobs freely - EXCEPT, that is, by the company employing you.

That is why they're so toxic to everybody else and such a perfect way to keep labor in line for the company.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#78

Post by nitrogen »

winter_blue wrote: post #71
ak217 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a zero sum game for you and the H-1B visa holders. The H-1B and other skilled labor visas select for individuals who are intelligent, mobile, and entrepreneurial. Those individuals and their families are here temporarily unless they can secure a green card (a tremendously difficult process that requires limiting their employment choices, handicapping them in their earning potential compared to you). Most A…

> Most Americans expressing your sentiment have no idea how much hassle immigrants have to go through in this process or every time they cross the border. Exactly. Most Americans don't seem to know how incredibly hard it is to immigrate to this country. They think it's as easy today as it was for their ancestors who came here a hundred years or so ago. The fact is, if you are not seeking refugee or asylee status, and…

One doesn't have to be racist to see the potential hypocrisy of laying off thousands of employees while claiming to be unable to hire locally. Arguments to the contrary might be better served by discussing why those employees couldn't do what an expanded allotment of H1Bs could.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#79

Post by crdoconnor »

cynicalkane wrote: post #34
jquery wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not depressing to see people's political attitudes change with more experience and in response to life experience and new realities. It's actually quite refreshing. You should be far more worried about the opposite, someone who uses ideology as a mental shortcut. > In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened in their jobs, then you hear them talk abo…

> Since when did economists have tech worker interests in mind? All bow down at the altar of GDP, everyone else can burn. Good straw man, but most economists are left-wing academics who chose a low-paying career track despite having a very marketable degree. I don't know of a single economist, not even any Austrian nut-jobs, who seriously think GDP is more important than human welfare. But hey. Tell me, seriously, wh…

>Good straw man, but most economists are left-wing academics who chose a low-paying career track despite having a very marketable degree.

These supposed left wing economists follow the money just like everybody else. The money in research is there, provided you provide research that is 'useful' to certain pro-corporate groups.

It's somewhat like climate science in that respect, except the climate science community hasn't been corrupted by the money thrown at it to prove 'global warming doesn't exist' whereas the economist profession has been utterly corrupted by it.

>But hey. Tell me, seriously, why it is good for the world to take this enormous pool of potential high-skilled workers and shut them out, leaving them in countries they don't want to be in,

One reason would be because those countries suffer badly enough from brain drain as it is. Another would be because it becomes too easy to play one set of workers against another and drag down wages all across the world. Wanna know one of the political causes of massive wealth & income inequality? This.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#80

Post by mountbob »

1) If it was the same in OTHER PROFESSIONS then I'd be ok - but it's not. Professionals licensed to practice in their country cannot immigrate and practice here - they end up resorting to things like becoming cab drivers etc (not that there's anything wrong with being a cab driver - but if you went to university for a solid profession then it's not a good result). Allow accountants, doctors, lawyers accredited in their countries to come and be able to become licensed here and push down their wages for the rest of us, then we can talk. This keeps supply in their field down and their wages up.

2) These visas do not incentivize corporations to RETRAIN their employees. Yes the specific technology changes but the ability to understand how to interact, program, maintain, etc do not (in relation).

3) Is AGEISM a management or a worker problem? Sure, it's up to the worker to keep up to date, but I've seen plenty of examples where ageism is more a problem of the industry. Somebody who is 40+, has a CompSci degree, worked in the industry for 15-20 years, gained wisdom is somehow worthless because they don't know the exact specific technology.

These visas are a bandaid to a problem that tech corporations themselves created. They don't retrain their valuable workers with outdated skills and instead look to foreign countries for a quick-fix out of their mess.

Keep up the high wages and you'll continue to see an increase in CompSci enrollment. Then pay to retrain your (good) employees for the latest technology and you'll keep them. Corporations have options, they're just more motivated at the H1-B candy then something that benefits everyone.

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