European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA • Hacker News Board

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#71

Post by PythonicAlpha » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 4:06 PM UTC

avz wrote: post #70

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growth and more growth is only needed, because of our interest based money system. Any gardener can tell you, that unlimited (and exponential) growth is not possible. But economists still believe in it. Some (very soon) day, all the resources of this planet will be wasted -- and humanity will have destroyed itself -- just because of economic theories and to make billionaires from millionaires.

Growth is needed to lift people out of poverty, create jobs and opportunities and support wider range of social projects from infrastructure to space exploration. The burden we're putting on the resources of this planet is indeed very high and we must work to reduce it. However, GDP growth with shrinking burden on the environment is achievable by generating more value on a smaller environmental footprint (see my othe…

That is just capitalistic propaganda that now runs the last decades over the world.

But it does not work any more. The "growth" of the last two decades did go 99% into the pockets of the millionaires and billionaires.

Today is the situation, that new jobs in underdeveloped countries are at the existence minimum of that country or below -- meaning, those people work their ass of, just to survive and make the big bosses richer. And additionally, the environments of the countries are polluted, resources are depleted ...

All in the name of god money.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#72

Post by yottah » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

leccine wrote: post #57

yottah wrote: post #48

"Public interest" is mostly an excuse for unnecessary statism and senseless regulation of European bureaucrats. European economy is very weak compared to that of US, and proponents of regulations under the guise of "public interest" have zero legitimacy because the results are terrible. Allowing corporations to free themselves from the shackles of regulation will benefit average citizen of both continents by increasi…

"European economy has barely grown for 15 years and these agreements are a welcome development." Good, keep it this way. We don't need more economic growth because the 90% of it goes straight to billionaires and the average worker don't benefit from it anyways. What we really need is an economy that does not rely on growth and mass production of toxic waste.

You are welcome to move to Venezuela, Belarus or some other unlivable place. I'd prefer Europe to be economically free and in growing prosperity much like Singapore. Sadly most of EU citizens are overly brainwashed with statist propaganda from birth, and promoting degenerate policies which cause economic weakness.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#73

Post by sirkneeland » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 4:44 PM UTC

leccine wrote: post #58

throwaway28974 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For everyone, by default. Please give a pair of two EU countries, one of which is better of because it has struck a deal concerning free trade with the United States in the last two decades that was denied to the other country. I'm curious.

You are right. In US there is no good healthcare and this is the most expensive system that provides the least value for an _average_ individual. Education, same. This is what should be exported to the rest of the world? Who are you kidding? The only thing USA could export is guns and dirt bikes.

And in all likelihood the software that powers your smartphone (to say nothing of heavy industry, biotech, higher education... ). If you wanted to mention something that sounds "dumb" you could have at least gone with agriculture and hydrocarbons or something more accurate.

I'd say this post is deliberately offensive. More importantly for HN it is simply inaccurate.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#74

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 4:45 PM UTC

I'm disappointed to see so many people objecting to a free trade agreement that would benefit both the US and EU tremendously. When people oppose such things, I always ask whether they think the US would be better off as a patchwork of 50 countries, each with their own tariffs etc., or if they think the EU was better when you needed to go through passport control every time you crossed a border and products needed to go through separate sets of approvals in every country before they could be sold.

Free trade does a lot more for people than national sovereignty. I rather doubt anyone here thinks we'd be better off with 180 national networks instead of a global internet, but that's what most of you are arguing for where physical goods are concerned. If it were up to me I'd like to see unrestricted movement across borders of goods, capital and people.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#75

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 4:49 PM UTC

leccine wrote: post #57

yottah wrote: post #48

"Public interest" is mostly an excuse for unnecessary statism and senseless regulation of European bureaucrats. European economy is very weak compared to that of US, and proponents of regulations under the guise of "public interest" have zero legitimacy because the results are terrible. Allowing corporations to free themselves from the shackles of regulation will benefit average citizen of both continents by increasi…

"European economy has barely grown for 15 years and these agreements are a welcome development." Good, keep it this way. We don't need more economic growth because the 90% of it goes straight to billionaires and the average worker don't benefit from it anyways. What we really need is an economy that does not rely on growth and mass production of toxic waste.

Crony capitalism is bad, and so is Marxist claptrap.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#76

Post by sirkneeland » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 4:49 PM UTC

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #68

avz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic growth does not necessarily imply destruction of the environment. The growth rate refers to the rate at which value of products and services in an economy grows. The aggregate environmental footprint may in fact shrink or grow slower than the GDP. I can think of three reasons why there could be a gap between GDP growth and environmental footprint growth: Services. Most of the value in a modern economy lies i…

That is just a theory. What do we have in practice: - Some years ago, you could (yourself) exchange the battery of your mobile phone -- today, many mobile phones will be thrown away, when the battery is finished or any other part does not work any more. Todays "highest tech" industries are environmental nightmares. And now they even build tablet PCs that way, that should replace normal computers (see MS Surface). - A…

It's actually more likely that your battery will be properly disposed of today than it was a decade ago. Its being integrated into the phone means it is handled in the entire "decommissioning" of the phone (when you recycle it, trade it in or even throw it away where it is fished out by garbage processing companies who make money by salvaging electronics out of garbage and preventing it from going to landfills.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#77

Post by justnotsure » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 5:02 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #61

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of plenty of other reasons to distrust the EU. The EU parliament is the only aspect that is partially on the side of the people. But on the other end there's the EU Commission, the council of ministers and the entire corrupt EU bureaucracy that is beyond any form of oversight. Parliament is the least powerful element of the EU, and any positive news that reaches HN from the EU is usually about parliament…

> The EU itself is a backdoor for treaties like TTIP and CETA. Without it, such treaties would have to go through the democratic processes of sovereign nations, which, although far from perfect, are most certainly more transparent and democratic than the EU. (At least, that was the case until the EU started including blatantly corrupt nations.) Uhm... no? If there was no EU, we'd now have a lot of bilateral agreement…

what about the democratic process? The UK politicians are being punished over the UK/US extradition policy. Who in the EU are you going to punish if one day we wake up with TTIP on our backs? Nobody, because there is no democratic process in the EU. Are you going to vote EU Commission out?

The lack of democracy is no.1 problem with the EU. Any person who believes in democracy really can't say I believe in EU at the same time.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#78

Post by HSO » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 5:06 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #74

I'm disappointed to see so many people objecting to a free trade agreement that would benefit both the US and EU tremendously. When people oppose such things, I always ask whether they think the US would be better off as a patchwork of 50 countries, each with their own tariffs etc., or if they think the EU was better when you needed to go through passport control every time you crossed a border and products needed to…

Excuse me, but this is not about "free trade" per se. Trade between Europe and America already is to a large extent free. Why do you think it has the volume it already has today? So free trade rhetoric is misplaced here. What TTIP is about is about regulations, for example concerning food or medicine, patent and copyright laws, etc. And I, for one, abhor US patent laws, or their blatant and complete disregard for the environment or animal beings, etc. I don't want your crap food here, your GMO conglomerates, or your patent lawyers. And for sure I don't want Germany or France to be financially liable to some faceless big corp when it rules certain things in the interest of the people it is supposed to protect and represent! Sure, do what you want, you can have your "standards" at your side of the Atlantic and continue to get reamed by your political elite and Washington lawyers. But don't export them here, to us!

What I find particularly galling is how TTIP proponents dangle a decimal point rise in GDP in front of us when it is not even possible to forecast accurately the economy as it is. What is more, let's go with it and assume it came to pass -- GDP miraculously increased by what they said it would as a result. What about the costs incurred in terms of loss of (even more) control over our food supply chain, increase in health care costs, more draconian imposition of your patent and copyright laws, etc etc.

Nobody with a job and not a specialist can be reasonably expected to get to know in detail what such agreements entails. So there needs to be a basis of trust that the US will not fuck us over. And here you seem to forget: The US, since Adolf Bush and his co-captain Barack Hitler, is doing its best to lose massive amounts trust and goodwill here, even in traditionally pro-America Germany. You don't have much credit left, both literally and figuratively, better not squander it. We believe you less and less. Just go away. You have already taken more than enough.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#79

Post by briandh » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 5:11 PM UTC

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #71

avz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growth is needed to lift people out of poverty, create jobs and opportunities and support wider range of social projects from infrastructure to space exploration. The burden we're putting on the resources of this planet is indeed very high and we must work to reduce it. However, GDP growth with shrinking burden on the environment is achievable by generating more value on a smaller environmental footprint (see my othe…

That is just capitalistic propaganda that now runs the last decades over the world. But it does not work any more. The "growth" of the last two decades did go 99% into the pockets of the millionaires and billionaires. Today is the situation, that new jobs in underdeveloped countries are at the existence minimum of that country or below -- meaning, those people work their ass of, just to survive and make the big bosse…

> But it does not work any more. The "growth" of the last two decades did go 99% into the pockets of the millionaires and billionaires.

According to the world bank, the number of people in poverty worldwide declined from about 1.9 billion in 1990 to about 1.2 billion in 2010. That is despite an increase in surveyed population of about 1.4 billion over the same period. ( http://iresearch.worldbank.org/PovcalNet/index.htm?1,0 )

Now, it is possible that economic growth over that period was so enormous that only 1% of it (or less, considering that there are more people in the world besides the very destitute, millionaires, and billionaires) was sufficient for that amazing reduction in poverty.

But it seems unlikely, so I would appreciate a source for the assertion "The 'growth' of the last two decades did go 99% into the pockets of the millionaires and billionaires."

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#80

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Jul 16, 2014, 5:34 PM UTC

HSO wrote: post #78

anigbrowl wrote: post #74

I'm disappointed to see so many people objecting to a free trade agreement that would benefit both the US and EU tremendously. When people oppose such things, I always ask whether they think the US would be better off as a patchwork of 50 countries, each with their own tariffs etc., or if they think the EU was better when you needed to go through passport control every time you crossed a border and products needed to…

Excuse me, but this is not about "free trade" per se. Trade between Europe and America already is to a large extent free. Why do you think it has the volume it already has today? So free trade rhetoric is misplaced here. What TTIP is about is about regulations, for example concerning food or medicine, patent and copyright laws, etc. And I, for one, abhor US patent laws, or their blatant and complete disregard for the…

I'm from Ireland. Your ranting reminds me of the arguments nationalists make against greater EU integration. However, I have no wish to see the EU revert to being a bunch of mercantilist nations, and I don't support US-EU mercantilism either. The best way to make the US more like the EU is to deal with it, not lie on the ground like a child throwing a tantrum.