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Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

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Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#71
post #70
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, but I'm not sure what you're asking. Kuhn's point (and mine, by transitivity) is that scientists are human with unavoidable biases, and these biases will influence what work they do. The reason I don't know how to answer your question is that I interpret it to mean: what tangible result do we have before we have our first tangible result? Of course, if that's not what you mean, then please clarify. You…

Thanks Scott. I understand that phlogiston thrived until real honest scientific experiments disproved it. Thanks to which "interpretation" before that point? Can't we call it "shut up, experiment and calculate"? Or, simpler, "do the science."

There was none, that I'm aware of. It was a long, drawn out affair over more than a century, as far as I know. If you're looking for a direct analog to the situation with interpreting quantum mechanics, then I'm afraid you won't find it.

The analogy I draw from it is not direct, but merely: scientists unavoidably think of their work in certain ways that are themselves not tested. This thinking influences their work.

(You've made some changes since I responded, so let me respond to your last question: No, they cannot. Just as choosing what articles goes into the newspaper makes the news inherently subjective, scientists themselves choose what problems to work on, and experiments to carry out. You want them to just "do the science," but what science? The mental framework that helps them decide what science to do is what Kuhn calls a paradigm, and my claim is that the interpretations of quantum mechanics are such a paradigm. That, then, means that the interpretations are important, even if we can't yet directly test them.)

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#72
post #63
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that level I don't have any problem with "many worlds" as it can be seen just a one more extrapolation of "we're not in the designed special position" principle: first we're not the center around which the planets circle, then our Sun also isn't the center of our set of stars, then our set of stars is one of many other galaxies... if our physical universe is just a lucky variant of other possible (and mostly unint…

But there is an important difference - you can observe the other stuff in our universe and therefore know that we are not (exceptionally) special in our universe. Other universes are usually per definition completely outside of our reach, as hard to grab as a god or Russell's teapot.

> completely outside of our reach, as hard to grab as a god or Russell's teapot.

I agree! As in my other comments here, as long as there isn't any scientific result, I also won't regard the products of the proponents of such "interpretations" better than you.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#74
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bring it back to the scientific method. The way to differentiate between competing hypotheses is by devising experiments that falsify some of them, and then running the experiments and either falsifying or failing to falsify them. The issue here is subtle, and it's that the most popular interpretation, Copenhagen, isn't a complete theory because it doesn't tell you algorithmically when collapse occurs. For any possib…

I think I can agree with your first paragraph, even if I'd phrase it somewhat differently, but I don't see the connection between it and the next two.

I certainly meant those three paragraphs to be connected; perhaps I'm just poor at explaining. As I mentioned, the shortcomings of the Copenhagen Interpretation are subtle, and I originally linked to Yudkowski's treatment because I believe he does much better job of explaining it than I ever could.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#75
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical, if only because this should be a big deal and hasn't gotten much press. > We're able to set the spin (rotational direction) of these particles in a predetermined state, verify this spin and subsequently read out the data. This is terribly unclear. I don't have access to the article - maybe its better explained there? The problem with using quantum entanglement for information transfer is that you can't…

Paper in short: http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/2014/scienze/science-xpres... Paper in full: http://arxiv.org/abs/1404.4369 To the physicists among the us, please share your opinion on the paper with the rest of us. It's not easy to digest the paper. The finding is not only going to change finance, but also the whole data economy will speed up. Now 'Quants' can be located anywhere and everyone has can enjoy same ad…

Not a physicist, but I don't think this is much to get excited about... There's no faster-than-light communication happening -- you'll note in the second paragraph that Alice must send the outcome of her measurement to Bob. It's a step towards impressive quantum computers, which will be cool to have so we can do things like Shor's algorithm or Grover's algorithm, but there's still a long way to go.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#76
This sums up my thoughts exactly. The pilot-wave theory "...seems to me so natural and simple, to resolve the wave-particle dilemma in such a clear and ordinary way, that it is a great mystery to me that it was so generally ignored."

I don't run in experimental-physicist circles, granted, but I've definitely encountered countless cases of a clear, obvious, correct solution being brought up and summarily ignored for what proves to be a poor solution. The probabilistic theories have always made for good Science Fiction, but that should hardly matter.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#77
post #15

Interesting. Maybe this will discourage chuckleheads and ne'er-do-wells from citing "quantum physics" as the justifixation for their particular variety of woo? Probably not, but one can hope!

I hope so, mostly because it makes it harder to claim that the universe is non-deterministic; it was QM that really pushed that from vague spiritualism into accepted science.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#78
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't bullshit your way through criticism with vague-sounding phrases like “As the particles move along, they feel the wave field generated by them in the past and all other particles in the past”, you're not trying hard enough. :v This magical bracelet is powered by the wave field shaping the contours of the superfluid of space time! Carrying you through life on positive pilot waves!

I can imagine supporters of homeopathy would have a great time drawing unfounded conclusions from the bit in that article that talks about fluids exhibiting a "path memory".

Would be even worse if it was proven that molecule actually have this kind of memory.

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#79
post #76

This sums up my thoughts exactly. The pilot-wave theory "...seems to me so natural and simple, to resolve the wave-particle dilemma in such a clear and ordinary way, that it is a great mystery to me that it was so generally ignored." I don't run in experimental-physicist circles, granted, but I've definitely encountered countless cases of a clear, obvious, correct solution being brought up and summarily ignored for w…

This seems to be common problem. Watzlawick describes an experiment where two people (A and B) are given the task to classify tissue samples as "healthy" or "sick".

There is an initial training session where a light tells them whether their answer was correct, with one little caveat: only A gets real feedback. B's light just duplicates A's, so the answers that B receives are essentially random (I think they get different picture as well).

Since the task is not very difficult (on purpose), the As learn the task in 80% of the cases. The Bs have a much more difficult task, they are required to try and find order in a random world. They form very complex theories to account for this.

However, that's not the experiment quite yet. The real experiment is that As and Bs are then put together to discuss their results. What happens then is stunning: instead of rejecting the B's theories as unnecessarily complex, the As are usually so impressed with the subtle complexity and detailed brilliance of the B's theories, that they change their mind and accept the B theories!

When asked who will improve in the next round, all the Bs and most of the As pick the Bs. And they are right, because the As will have accepted at least some of the Bs ideas and thus perform more poorly.

Reference: http://omg.pytalhost.net/dls/ebk_wwidw.pdf (German)

Re: Fluid Tests Hint at Concrete Quantum Reality

#80
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I can agree with your first paragraph, even if I'd phrase it somewhat differently, but I don't see the connection between it and the next two.

I certainly meant those three paragraphs to be connected; perhaps I'm just poor at explaining. As I mentioned, the shortcomings of the Copenhagen Interpretation are subtle, and I originally linked to Yudkowski's treatment because I believe he does much better job of explaining it than I ever could.

Allow me to not agree with your classification of the top article as "garbage." I've got from it more than from the text you linked to and I'm even less satisfied with your explanations whereas Natalie Wolchover did a rather good article. Please tell me if you have any background in physics, or what is your background?

The major thing missing from the article for me is that she didn't mention that the co-author of the most recent paper on the topic is much more known as the security researcher than as somebody who does anything related to quantum physics:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.4356

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_J._Anderson

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/

He's author of (to me) very useful book "Security Engineering":

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html

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