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Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

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Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#71

Post by thaumasiotes »

Lambdanaut wrote: post #35
philcoders wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The rest of the article dealt with interpreting biblical statements to fit the current undeniable understanding of the universe.", (How do i correctly put a quote here in the replies?) In Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

The Earth is a sphere, not a circle. That's not a nitpick either. They thought the Earth was a flat disk back then. Regardless. Even if you were dumbly granted that the Earth was a flat disk, how would that have any barring on the rest of the Bible's arguments? Plato was right about a lot of things, but does that mean he was also right about the elemental nature of the universe? (Everything being created from the bas…

> They thought the Earth was a flat disk back then.

What "they" are you talking about? Europeans haven't thought the earth was flat since the beginning of recorded history. It seems reasonably safe to extend that viewpoint to Mediterraneans.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#72

Post by josephlord »

codeulike wrote: post #4

I very much doubt there were any UK schools teaching it anyway, hence this news is not really news this side of the pond. (Context for those in the US)

I think "any" is probably an optimistic stretch. Certainly there have been academies[0] teaching it. It wouldn't surprise me if some religious schools would still like to (Muslim and Church schools being most likely).

[0] http://www.theguardian.com/education/2004/jul/11/schoolpriva...

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#73

Post by lotsofmangos »

tptacek wrote: post #22
l0gicpath wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no reason for your comment, specially when the guidelines are clear about these types of contributions. From http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html 4th paragraph from the bottom > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is > inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, > flag it by going to its page and clicking on > the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this…

I disagree with that section of the guidelines.

I disagree with you completely about this article not being suitable for HN, but on the other hand, I have to respect this approach to people quoting guidelines.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#74

Post by err4nt »

I never understood why people get so worked up over this issue. Is the job of education to only ever let a child hear the one thing we believe to be most factual and never hear anything else? How boring would life be?

I grew up in a place that valued multiculturalism. We heard about creation, AND evolution, and Indian creation myths, and Egyptian creation myths, and more. Pthe idea was that we had these people around us with this rich history and tradition and us learning it made us understand others better, and feel closer to them. We knew where they were coming from!

So why not teach creationism in schools, as long as at least one group of people are telling their kids, then that's something we should tell all of our kids so they all understand. I don't see the harm.

What if learning origins stories was an exploration of history or anthropology, instead of being framed as 'science'.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#75

Post by dropit_sphere »

wfjackson wrote: post #58
jscheel wrote: post #49

Scientists tend to exclude God, and creationists tend to exclude science. It would benefit all of us for each side to recognize that they can live in harmony. Science can provide insight into how God's creation works, but it can never exclude God. If religious interpretation of scripture flies in the face of provable, observable science, then perhaps our interpretation of that scripture is wrong. I'm tired of this ri…

It is ironic that the very same creationists tend to exclude Gods from other religions. Why do they firmly exclude the Mayan God, or the Hindu Gods? Why are their scriptures true but not the others? If there are contradictions in the scriptures of the various religions in the world, then perhaps the creationists "interpretation of that scripture is wrong". The following quote comes to mind: “I contend we are both ath…

I had to engage with the Roberts quote because it made me think.

I think he's making a false equivalency. A jump from believing in one god to two gods seems much less significant than a jump from zero to one. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_One_Infinity)

Further, I'm not sure that Roberts understands why the religious reject other gods. Like most things people do, there are a variety of reasons:

- Both Judaism and Islam have explicit commandments or statements of faith that reject other gods

- Suspicious of foreigners? Deride their religion as unreasonable and obviously contrafactual

- Wary of talk of the divine being used as justification for a mortal power play? (And you should be) Add a bias for rejection into your calculations

- And of course, extraordinary claims and extraordinary evidence

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#76

Post by devgutt »

tptacek wrote: post #6

Politics. Religion. Valence issue. Why is this on the front page of HN? It shouldn't be; I flagged it.

When a government is trying to preserve our only tool to understand the world, well I think this is relevant. There are people fighting otherwise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AS6rQtiEh8

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#77

Post by arethuza »

err4nt wrote: post #74

I never understood why people get so worked up over this issue. Is the job of education to only ever let a child hear the one thing we believe to be most factual and never hear anything else? How boring would life be? I grew up in a place that valued multiculturalism. We heard about creation, AND evolution, and Indian creation myths, and Egyptian creation myths, and more. Pthe idea was that we had these people around…

"What if learning origins stories was an exploration of history or anthropology"

That's pretty much how it is taught in schools here (at least in Scotland) - kids are taught about religions as cultural phenomena.

Meanwhile, in science classes they are taught about we think the world was actually created.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#78

Post by joesmo »

tptacek wrote: post #11
codeulike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well OK it seems there are a handful, e.g http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/nov/30/... ... but I just wanted to highlight that the situation in the UK is generally very different to the USA.

It's unlawful to teach religion in public schools in the US.

False.

"Part of the problem is widespread misunderstanding regarding U.S. law. According to a 2010 Pew Forum survey, nearly two-thirds of Americans erroneously believe that the Constitution forbids public schools from offering a course on religion.

"Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, said courts have ruled that schools must be neutral, but that doesn't mean they must ignore religion. On the contrary, ignoring religion gives preferential treatment to a strictly secular worldview, he said." -- http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765616766/Religion-in-pub...

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#79

Post by mercurial »

err4nt wrote: post #74

I never understood why people get so worked up over this issue. Is the job of education to only ever let a child hear the one thing we believe to be most factual and never hear anything else? How boring would life be? I grew up in a place that valued multiculturalism. We heard about creation, AND evolution, and Indian creation myths, and Egyptian creation myths, and more. Pthe idea was that we had these people around…

I don't think anybody is opposing teaching religious creation myths in a religion class. Saying that "creationism is a valid scientific theory", on the other hand, is the same thing as claiming that there is a controversy in the scientific world about the existence of Greek titans. Teaching that the world is a varied place is valuable, but it doesn't mean telling kids that myths and science have the same factual value.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#80

Post by joesmo »

err4nt wrote: post #74

I never understood why people get so worked up over this issue. Is the job of education to only ever let a child hear the one thing we believe to be most factual and never hear anything else? How boring would life be? I grew up in a place that valued multiculturalism. We heard about creation, AND evolution, and Indian creation myths, and Egyptian creation myths, and more. Pthe idea was that we had these people around…

It'd be a waste of children's time and energy. I understand that, at least in the US, the purpose of schools is not education but babysitting, but if you're going to spend time teaching anyway, perhaps teaching children real science instead of pseudoscience might be a better option not only for them but for society as a whole. Societies that believe school's primary purpose is education don't even have the excuse above for the miseducation you refer to.

It's not about teaching children what we believe to be most factual, it's about not teaching them what we know is false.

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