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Be Nice Or Leave

avc.com

71–80 of 108 posts

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#71

I worked at a company once that conflated mean-spirited policies with "just business". The result was a downfall that was entirely preventable. Vacation and sick leave were combined ("PTO") which meant that you had to take a vacation day if you got sick. The result of this was that people came into work when ill and everyone was less productive. Very little ever got done in the winter, because it was just one constan…

Our company uses PTO and open-plan offices, and while they're not ideal solutions, nothing is, and I think they get a bad rap around here.

As for PTO I appreciate my boss's explanation: "I just don't want any sniping over sick days. If you don't feel like you can come in and work, it should cost something. That way nobody will complain when someone calls in sick."

Similarly, I've heard a lot of complaints about open-plan offices, and frankly, I do think they're collaborative. Initially I didn't love the fact that I have to hear everyone's discussions around me, but it's certainly helped problems get solved quicker than they otherwise would. When two devs across the office are discussing a weird bug they're seeing it can have a lot of implications. Maybe you happened to see it two days ago it gives you the opportunity to chime in, or it allows the product manager to say "Guys, that feature isn't super important, if it's really hard we can just cut it", or it allows the QA guy to say "Let me know what area that affects so I can make sure to write some extra test cases". All of those situations seem innocuous when you're all working together, but if you're in separate offices or working remotely people will end up wasting time trying to figure these things out by themselves before reaching out for help.

These aren't ideal solutions, so you just have to be sure to take steps to mitigate the costs. With PTO you have to be generous with the time granted in order to account for the fact that it's employee's vacation + sick days, and with open offices you have to have a space employees can go to get serious work done without distractions. If you DO take those mitigating steps I think they're both good systems.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#72

A saying that I heard a long time ago, that really stuck with me (both as a business owner, and from the flipside as a customer): You can shear a sheep many times, but you can skin it only once. If you go in for the kill, and really take advantage of someone in a transaction (i.e, skin the sheep), that will likely signal the end of any (positive) transactions with that person, unless you have a monopoly or other such…

That's pretty calculating though. Essentially you're saying 'be nice' because there is money in it. But actually people should just be nice even (or maybe especially ) if there is no money in it.

I wouldn't think of it that way. Being nice actually adds value to the transaction, for both sides.

It sweetens the deal without actually costing anybody anything. Even if nobody takes home any additional dollar bills when the business is concluded, if everyone is trying to be nice, it may be worth going ahead with it anyway, just to build mutual trust and confidence for some future transaction. Though you can't ever spent it directly, and it is difficult to measure, reputation does have monetary value.

Essentially, it's like having a magical purse of silver coins that is never empty, but you can't ever spend even one of them yourself. You can only give them away to other people. Is it better to hoard those coins to yourself, or to give one to everyone you meet?

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#73

I worked at a company once that conflated mean-spirited policies with "just business". The result was a downfall that was entirely preventable. Vacation and sick leave were combined ("PTO") which meant that you had to take a vacation day if you got sick. The result of this was that people came into work when ill and everyone was less productive. Very little ever got done in the winter, because it was just one constan…

[deleted]

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#74
Being nice is easy. Being good is hard.

What's missing here is that powerful people are almost always transacting on behalf of many others who are not present at the bargaining table. By being nice, they may be trading other people's money for personal goodwill that they get to keep for themselves. This is "being nice" in some ways, but this isn't good for society and may be highly unethical. Would you want government regulators to be nice to the industry people they are regulating because in the long run they benefit from having good relationship with industry leaders? Would you want hedge fund managers who's managing your money to be nice to banks, that is, overpay for services, because fees come out of your pocket while they can monetize the relationship in the future? Would you want college admissions officers to be nice to their friends with college-bound kids? When you're applying for internships, would you want the hiring managers to be nice to all their church friends who may need something to do during the summer?

People in powerful positions being nice to personal acquaintances at the expense of strangers is a huge problem and the root of all corruption. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be nice - being ethical and balancing the interests of all parties involved is an extremely tricky proposition but I'm surprised at the amount of agreement here, because so much of what people complain about around here often comes down to other people being nice to one another at your expense.

Edit: I'm especially surprised that a VC would make such a comment because it's an industry where being nice for the sake of relationship can be highly unethical. You're always working with other people's money and whether as an investor or a board member, you're often responsible for making decisions that benefit people you represent even if it involves some kind of hit to your "nice" reputation. At the top level of management, big decisions are rarely easy and always have winners and losers.

Edit2: As another example, the recent non-poaching deal between SV companies was probably rationalized as "let's be nice to one another" while those that didn't participate were seen as not being nice or being too cutthroat. Niceness between natural competitors can quickly lead to a collusive agreement.

Edit3: I'm not advising any specific course of action, simply noting that the advice as given is far too vague and can often lead to rationalization of highly unethical activities. I'm sure Steve Jobs thought Google trying to recruit Apple employees was "Google screwing over Apple" and the consequent no-poach agreement is partners being nice to one another.

Edit4: Dreamweapon, I didn't downvote you (don't have the power anyway) but regulators work with executives, directors and employees who are people. Regulators have strong incentives to cultivate relationships with people in the industry so that they can transition into the private sector. Likewise, hedge fund managers aren't trying to be nice to the banks - they are being nice to specific salespeople, brokers and bankers because they can expect favors in return. Also favoritism to people you know is being nice to people you know - the gist of what's being advocated here is be nice to people you know, because relationship.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#75
post #36

Almost everybody I have ever learned something truly valuable from was a nice person. I have yet to meet an example of the single-minded-asshole-genius who is actually a success. Most of the truly credible successes I have met are nice people and highly regarded.

While this is mostly based on hearsay, what about Steve Jobs?

From all the anecdotal accounts and unsubstantiated rumors I have heard, Steve Jobs was a reasonably intelligent, single-minded asshole, and Steve Wozniak was the super-nice-guy genius.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#76
One of the biggest companies in the world invited us the little guy innovator to demo our new technology. They were down right NASTY and mean.

I say this not because they didn't buy us out, but because we spent our money to fly to the valley to demo our tech only to learn they blocked our tech from working and said things like, you better run the race is on.

They also baited us with money and opportunity if we told them how our tech worked. We took the bait and they kicked us out!

Not sure why they had to be such jerks!?!

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#77

This was one of my key take-aways from Dale Carnegie's classic, 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'. I've seen it mentioned on various reading lists for those wanting to go into the business world too. Funny thing is, when recommending it to a friend, they mistakenly assumed from the title that it was a book of underhand tactics, which couldn't really be further from the truth. There's a lot to be said for bein…

> Funny thing is, when recommending it to a friend, they mistakenly assumed from the title that it was a book of underhand tactics

Most people I've told about this book have the same reaction, to the point where I suspect that Carnegie picked the title on purpose to get 'manipulators' to learn how to actually be good people.

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#78

A saying that I heard a long time ago, that really stuck with me (both as a business owner, and from the flipside as a customer): You can shear a sheep many times, but you can skin it only once. If you go in for the kill, and really take advantage of someone in a transaction (i.e, skin the sheep), that will likely signal the end of any (positive) transactions with that person, unless you have a monopoly or other such…

Game theory's star child, the prisoner's dilemma, also shows this principle quite nicely.

As long as you plan on never working with that person again it is in your best interest to screw them over. If you plan on working with them indefiniately then the best known strategy is to treat them as they treat you, and to start off on a good foot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#79
post #31

Here's the thing about being not nice: you can usually get away with it if you're really exceptional, but if you ever misstep, nobody will want to help you out, and some may gleefully put the screws to you. Just in the last couple of years, a couple of acquaintances that had a reputation for being not nice have stumbled career-wise, and unsurprisingly no one was there to lend a hand. Honestly, I was shocked how littl…

It is alot like Diplomacy. You want to be honorable/nice until you are playing for the final outcome of your career, then you stop playing nice. The CEO at one of the places I've worked basically screwed over 80+ people to get his retirement package [sold the company; his equity was worth millions] and they blindly trusted him right up until the day he did it. Those 80 people were laid off shortly after and the jobs…

I hadn't heard of Diplomacy until I read the Grantland article [1] that was posted here yesterday.

"It is alot like Diplomacy. You want to be honorable/nice until you are playing for the final outcome of your career, then you stop playing nice." This sentence correlates exactly with the climax of that article.

  I don’t want to hurt the other players just to get that win, he had always thought. Additionally, by always being a trustworthy ally who plays honorably, Haver had built up a reputation as someone who was good to work with in tournaments. “That’s why it was easy for people on my board to say, ‘He’s not going to stab his ally.’

  “And that’s what allowed me to do it when I did.”
I am, however, hopeful that I would continue to be honorable through the end of my career. That's how you leave a legacy.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7913183

Re: Be Nice Or Leave

#80

Being nice is easy. Being good is hard. What's missing here is that powerful people are almost always transacting on behalf of many others who are not present at the bargaining table. By being nice, they may be trading other people's money for personal goodwill that they get to keep for themselves. This is "being nice" in some ways, but this isn't good for society and may be highly unethical. Would you want governmen…

> I'm especially surprised that a VC would make such a comment because it's an industry where being nice for the sake of relationship can be highly unethical.

I think you need to read the rest of this thread, especially the portions noting how one often has to work with people long after any given decision to be nice or not.

But additionally you also assume that being nice somehow shortchanges your ability to advocate or make good decisions, which isn't the case.

Being nice does prevent you from making decisions to screw people over, and if that's what you're referring to then I'm glad VCs are not taking your advice on this.

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