Live data from Hacker News

Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

utexas.edu

71–80 of 124 posts

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#71
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our country (and yours) wouldn't need to ask people to sacrifice that part of their humanity in service to their countrymen. Sacrifice in that sentence indicates that we are asking those people to give up their humanity in our service, as if that is something that makes it heroic. Besides, I didn't ask them, and never would. > You might find that while SEALs are happy to speak proudly what they've learned in basic…

You just read an article by a SEAL proudly talking about their training in terms that had nothing whatsoever to do with violence. That's what I meant earlier when I said you were taking things out of context to rebut arguments I hadn't made.

Ah ok, clear. SEALs are all about violence, I can see how some parts of their training have other applications but at the end of the day we're not talking about boy-scouts or pool guards here.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#72
post #43
post #4

It sounds like an impressive speech. I understand people share his values. The bravest and most meaningful action I saw from a military person was a college roommate who had returned from active duty as a Marine in the Gulf War. I don't know if his training was as intense as a SEAL's but he saw active duty and looked long and hard at his actions and those of this country and applied to become a conscientious objector…

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank. And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that…

"Ask them if they feel like they were taken advantage of." ... Not sure what is your point here ? Because, there are lots of angry veterans out there who don't receive the support and help they should get.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#73
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just read an article by a SEAL proudly talking about their training in terms that had nothing whatsoever to do with violence. That's what I meant earlier when I said you were taking things out of context to rebut arguments I hadn't made.

Ah ok, clear. SEALs are all about violence, I can see how some parts of their training have other applications but at the end of the day we're not talking about boy-scouts or pool guards here.

No part of the article we are talking about appears to be about violence. Moreover, the comment of mine that you replied to draws this point out specifically, attaches "pride" to the non-violent aspects of their service, and suggests that many of them feel the same way about violence that you do. That was the point of the book I suggested; it is largely about the damage that engagement with violence inflicts on the psyche of servicepeople.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#74
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's why there are things called ROEs: Rules of Engagement. A soldier just can't shoot anyone they see. There are very hard limits on who is considered a "combatant" and who is not. A big part of what gets soldiers and Marines on our side killed is ambiguity about who can be shot when they present a threat and who cannot. If you do anything outside of the ROE it can be considered a war crime: http://www.dailyma…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes Have a read. How many soldiers ended up in jail for these? How many commanding officers?

Wikipedia is your source? LOL.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#75
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank. And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that…

I think this is an extremely disrespectful and kneejerk reaction to a very thoughtful comment on the parent article. One factor that contributes to the readiness of the United States to go to war that escaped your analysis is that any critique, however mild, of the armed forces is met with furious moral indignation.

> I think this is an extremely disrespectful and kneejerk reaction to a very thoughtful comment on the parent article.

I disagree, given that the comment was in keeping with the spirit of the parent comment (i.e., using the opportunity presented to hack in and tear away at the topic being presented).

> that any critique, however mild, of the armed forces is met with furious moral indignation.

The best possible way to "support the troops" is to not send them to war in the first place, is it not? I'll disagree with a "blame the victim" mentality everywhere I see it, and you should too.

For instance, let's consider a fictional city (perhaps Gotham). Cities need firemen, even though we all hope that our stringent building codes will keep fires from starting (or at least, keep them from spreading), improved safety technology helps people put out their own fires, etc. But none of these are foolproof, and the idea of an uncontrolled fire spreading through densely-constructed buildings is so horrific that we have no choice but to maintain a cadre of firemen. OK.

But eventually our building codes and safety technologies become so good that Gotham realizes that the biggest risk of a large conflagration is actually from a fire starting in the border city opposite, so Gotham signs up their firemen for "mutual assistance" and helps put fires out in their neighbors, under the catchphrase "better to fight the fire there than have to fight it at home!". The logic seems to work, despite the number of firemen who die fighting these fires each year, and our neighboring cities are doing better at stopping fires too, so we sign up for mutual assistance with cities further and further away.

But larger and larger fires start to break out and worse, there are nasty and persistent rumors that those fires are actually being started by Gotham leaders, and even some of the firemen. Yet no one has completely solved the issue of fighting fires in Gotham, so the need to have some people with the training and skill to fight fires at home remains. And yet we don't like the idea of shady people doing shady things to start fires abroad.

So who do you blame, the people who signed up to fight fires (possibly abroad, with good reasons), or the people starting the fires?

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is horribly naive, so was Einstein: He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all t…

Why do people pull out quotes by globally recognized people in ordee to prove their points? So what if Albert Einstein said that? Are you implying that everything Albert Einstein says is true?

Where am I using Einstein's "authority" to support any of my arguments, except that I don't think it's a naive viewpoint? I agree with him on this, and having read some of his letters and whatnot I don't think he was naive, and I know he thought about people a lot and cared deeply about peace. I don't even care for his work in physics, because that goes right over my head, but find he said and wrote many wise things that still hold true. I even suspect this may be part of the reason he is "globally recognized": He wasn't just a scientist, he was a philosopher, too, had a big heart and a way with words. That is reason enough to quote anyone, and that Einstein gets quoted all the time for all sorts of reasons is not my problem.

I like the quote, and I agree with it. If you think you found a flaw in it, point out that flaw. I'm assuming that can be done, but you're not doing it; and otherwise, why would I care about the factuality of everything else he ever said, or even anything else? That's just a red herring.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#77
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank. And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that…

I think this is an extremely disrespectful and kneejerk reaction to a very thoughtful comment on the parent article. One factor that contributes to the readiness of the United States to go to war that escaped your analysis is that any critique, however mild, of the armed forces is met with furious moral indignation.

Because you're blaming the WRONG PARTY.

It's not the Armed Forces that should receive the criticism. It's the government and the civilians that push for them to go abroad and carry out their wishes.

How is that not something you understand?

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#78
post #43
post #4

It sounds like an impressive speech. I understand people share his values. The bravest and most meaningful action I saw from a military person was a college roommate who had returned from active duty as a Marine in the Gulf War. I don't know if his training was as intense as a SEAL's but he saw active duty and looked long and hard at his actions and those of this country and applied to become a conscientious objector…

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank. And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that…

I'm sure spodek meant no disrespect to Admiral McRaven by referring to him as "the UT guy." Likewise I'm sure you didn't intend to show disrespect for Dr. Spodek by referring to him as "Joshua."

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes Have a read. How many soldiers ended up in jail for these? How many commanding officers?

Wikipedia is your source? LOL.

So you get to use wikipedia but I don't?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7796608

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#80
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just took the words "sacrifice" and "pride" out of context and used them to rebut an argument I didn't make. And, obviously, I didn't make an argument that it was wrong to object to service in the military.

> our country (and yours) wouldn't need to ask people to sacrifice that part of their humanity in service to their countrymen. Sacrifice in that sentence indicates that we are asking those people to give up their humanity in our service, as if that is something that makes it heroic. Besides, I didn't ask them, and never would. > You might find that while SEALs are happy to speak proudly what they've learned in basic…

> SEALs speak proudly of their basic training because they glorify a thing that I abhor: violence.

That's not the thing they "glorify" though, any more than surgeons "glorify scalpels". They happen to be very good at using force in the way that a martial artist would be very good at using their hands and feet as weapons, but people don't go around saying that the local Jeet Kune Do instructors are "glorifying war".

The fact is that even for special operating forces (like the SEALs), the vast majority of what they do involves important, but non-violent (or as they'd say, non-direct action) operational missions.

Post reply on HN