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The Meaning of Life

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Re: The Meaning of Life

#71

Post by baddox »

dctoedt wrote: post #54

Riffing off of Robert Wright's book Non-Zero [1]: * Consider the apparent self-assembling of the universe over the last 13.8 billion years. * Consider the seeming overall long-term trend (certainly not a monotonic one) of "improvement" in life. Adapting Gregg Easterbrook's thought experiment [2]: Would you permanently trade places with a random person who lived 1,000 years ago? How about 10,000 years ago? Would anyon…

I don't see the significance of the trading places question. Would you trade places with a random person 1,000 years in the future either? Or a random person on Earth today? Or even a random person among the top 1,000 most successful (by your own definition) on Earth today? Or even a person you specifically choose? It seems like most relatively happy or even comfortable people would say no to all these opportunities.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#72

Post by joeguilmette »

baddox wrote: post #66
joeguilmette wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's hedonistic. But what is wrong with that? I would go so far as to posit that all actions, charitable or otherwise, are driven by the self serving goal of personal satisfaction. If it brings you joy to help others then it becomes a bit of a semantic and meaningless debate as to whether your intentions are noble or not.

It's important to be careful with our definitions. Hedonism in everyday language refers to minimizing pain and maximizing pleasure , with those two words defined imprecisely. The fact that people may derive utility from experiencing pain, both directly (enjoying pain signals themselves) or indirectly (choosing to suffer pain for some "greater good," like a sacrifice for a family member), is usually ignored in the eve…

In common terms I assume people to mean that an action was taken simply to experience pleasure. It's generally used negatively to imply that there is an emptiness and a selfishness driving the actor which I tend to dispute.

I think that your second definition is both easy to support and reduced beyond usefulness. If one experiences pleasure from pain (BDSM, piercing, tattoos, or as you mentioned sacrifice) then there is no paradox, no need to ignore these situations and no need for an alternate, even more vague definition.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#73

Post by baddox »

javert wrote: post #13

Here is the meaning of life. There is only one inherent value to consciousness, and it is pleasure. What is the evidence for this claim? It is directly perecptible. To see the proof of this, all you have to do is look. Everything else you value should be for the sake of this ultimate value. (Because there is no other ultimate value for them to be for the sake of.) Now, this isn't an endorsement of hedonism, which I t…

I think "pleasure" is the wrong word to use here, because it conceals that what you're really saying is a tautology. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that people should pursue the things that they desire. Words like "pleasure" or "happiness" might imply leaving out things like uncomfortable or painful exercise and diet in pursuit of future happiness from improved health or appearance, or sacrificing something of value for a friend or charity.

"Utility" might be a better word than "pleasure" or "happiness."

Re: The Meaning of Life

#74

Post by baddox »

nnx wrote: post #8

"People at the end of their life who claimed to be the happiest with their life were the ones who had spent the most time in this state of flow." I can certainly believe this. If you are not familiar with the concept of "flow state" (Samadhi in Hindu cultures [1]), I'd recommend reading the wonderful "Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art" by Stephen Nachmanovitch [2] over the more famous "Flow" by Mihaly Csikszen…

Is the goal to maximize how happy you report your life as having been when you're at its end? I could conceive of other plausible goals.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#75

Post by baddox »

joeguilmette wrote: post #72
baddox wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to be careful with our definitions. Hedonism in everyday language refers to minimizing pain and maximizing pleasure , with those two words defined imprecisely. The fact that people may derive utility from experiencing pain, both directly (enjoying pain signals themselves) or indirectly (choosing to suffer pain for some "greater good," like a sacrifice for a family member), is usually ignored in the eve…

In common terms I assume people to mean that an action was taken simply to experience pleasure. It's generally used negatively to imply that there is an emptiness and a selfishness driving the actor which I tend to dispute. I think that your second definition is both easy to support and reduced beyond usefulness. If one experiences pleasure from pain (BDSM, piercing, tattoos, or as you mentioned sacrifice) then there…

Under your proposed definition that includes sacrifice and enjoying pain, how is it possible for anyone to not be practicing hedonism? It's by definition impossible to make a choice that is not your preferred choice.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#76

Post by drumdance »

vdaniuk wrote: post #35
djim wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, as he states in the article, instinct is the result of experience. He is saying the mechanism of instinct is older in humans than logic, so the process is more refined/trustworthy when comparing the two. Seems right to me..

The mechanism of instinct has emerged from the evolutionary process to provide a survival and reproduction advantage over others. Instinct most certainly is an advantage for species (may be just random path-dependent mutation), not for the individual. Thus we shouldn't trust on instinct alone to find an optimal solution for sense/meaning problem.

That's my feeling too. We have lots of famous examples of intuitive, breakthrough, "a-ha" moments by great inventors, so we use that for inspiration.

However, there have been billions of bad-instinct decisions as well, ranging from "should have zigged instead of zagged" while driving a fast car around a curve to Napoleon invading Russia.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#77

Post by benjoffe »

jqm wrote: post #67
benjoffe wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see little point in trying to ascertain the "meaning" of life. From what I see, life itself gives birth to the concept of meaning not the other way around. Did you actually listen to the talk? He comes to the same conclusion.

I read the transcript. I don't think you understand what I am saying. We don't come to the same conclusions. I'm saying the concept of "meaning".... not the "meaning of life" is something derived from the property of life itself. Therefore using this concept to ask a question in a larger context probably isn't valid.

From the article:

> Nothing has inherent meaning. Everything is only what it is and that's it.

I think you come to the same conclusion but perhaps express it a little deeper than the author does.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#78

Post by javert »

baddox wrote: post #73
javert wrote: post #13

Here is the meaning of life. There is only one inherent value to consciousness, and it is pleasure. What is the evidence for this claim? It is directly perecptible. To see the proof of this, all you have to do is look. Everything else you value should be for the sake of this ultimate value. (Because there is no other ultimate value for them to be for the sake of.) Now, this isn't an endorsement of hedonism, which I t…

I think "pleasure" is the wrong word to use here, because it conceals that what you're really saying is a tautology. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that people should pursue the things that they desire. Words like "pleasure" or "happiness" might imply leaving out things like uncomfortable or painful exercise and diet in pursuit of future happiness from improved health or appearance, or sacrificing somethi…

I'm saying that people should pursue pleasure, not whatever they happen to desire.

To concretize, pleasure breaks down into two categories: physical pleasure and emotional pleasure. The former includes being full instead of hungry, etc. The latter includes happiness, joy, serenity, etc.

So you need to realize that attaining certain kinds of desires lead to maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain, and adjust your desires accordingly.

If you just pursue whatever you happen to desire without reference to any further standard, which is hedonism, you will not maximize pleasure and minimize pain.

For instance, I may not feel like exercising or going on a diet, but if I realize that those things will maximize my pleasure, then I now have the ability to desire to do them, because they are a value to me.

When you suggest "utility" as a better word, you are begging the question. Utility for what? To whom? Why would one kind of thing constitute utility, and not something else?

The answer is that there is only one kind of ultimate, inherent utility for a conscious being: pleasure. Everything else that has utility has utility for the sake of pleasure.

Let me know if you have any thoughts and want to continue the conversation.

Re: The Meaning of Life

#79

Post by devnonymous »

jqm wrote: post #18

I see little point in trying to ascertain the "meaning" of life. From what I see, life itself gives birth to the concept of meaning not the other way around. But I guess it would be hard to get speaking engagements saying "you are born, then you die, and what you do in between is a waste of time".... Even if this were the case in reality. (Which I'm not saying it is).

You didn't watch the video/hear the talk, did you ?

Re: The Meaning of Life

#80

Post by dominotw »

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide - Albert Camus in The Myth of Sisyphus.

Yes we can invent stupid justifications for life like 'life is about love', 'life is helping others' and a million other equally bizzare justifications but in the end its just a pointless absurdity.

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