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Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#71

Post by [deleted] »

couchand wrote: post #63
sanderjd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to stand there and take it, but sometimes it is better if you do. You don't know that he wouldn't be around right now. I happen to think that he would still be around, but certainly his life would be more difficult. But I also think he'd be more "popular".

Interesting trade-off: living in exile but invited to video conference at every big name event and helping direct the course of the national security discussion, or in solitary confinement in Guantanamo but more "popular" I'd say Snowden made the right choice.

[deleted]

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#72

Post by Haul4ss »

Ihmahr wrote: post #30
geetee wrote: post #3

I'm surprised by the amount of anti-Snowden sentiment in the WaPo comments.

I'm even more surprised by all the anti-Snowden comments here on HN.

Why? Reasonable people aren't allowed to disagree anymore?

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#73

Post by bediger4000 »

tormeh wrote: post #65
resu_nimda wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every national government in the civilized world needs an intelligence-gathering agency that can operate with some degree of operational secrecy. What is the basis for this assertion? What would happen to a nation that didn't have that?

It would lose wars, basically. Now, this matters less than it used to in this age of the nuclear bomb, but knowing what other nations are doing and planning is still useful in trade and technology. Knowing more about the market than others means you get better deals and China isn't the only nation doing industrial espionage. Terrorism? It's a pretty pedestrian intelligence agency whose primary aim is to prevent terro…

It would lose wars, basically

How do we know this? This strikes me as an assertion without evidence. Are there examples?

It also strikes me that the secrecy more often gets used to conceal career-ending mistakes and cost overruns, at least in the USA.

Has anybody done an honest assessment of secrecy?

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#74

Post by makmanalp »

tokenadult wrote: post #19

There is some good reporting here by the Washington Post about the circumstances of Clapper's testimony to Congress. Readers here who know my comments know that I'm not fully happy with how Snowden chose to disclose information from inside NSA, and particularly not about his travel to China (Hong Kong) and Russia, but I think Snowden raises a fair point here. There is some genuine difference of opinion among American…

I am not so sure. Taking a scandal you're in and spinning it or making the most of it is not a guaranteed success. I don't think politicians willingly put themselves into such situations, they just survive them sometimes.

As for your examples, the fact that politicians use drugs or have sex is no surprise to anyone, for example, but what if it was exposed that Berry secretly supported something that his constituency disagreed with? That's real political damage that's harder to survive.

I do think it's kinda far fetched that everyone is sufficiently intimidated that no one says anything.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#76

Post by tokenadult »

higherpurpose wrote: post #39
tokenadult wrote: post #19

There is some good reporting here by the Washington Post about the circumstances of Clapper's testimony to Congress. Readers here who know my comments know that I'm not fully happy with how Snowden chose to disclose information from inside NSA, and particularly not about his travel to China (Hong Kong) and Russia, but I think Snowden raises a fair point here. There is some genuine difference of opinion among American…

So are you saying the agencies should be "rogue" and completely independent from Congress?

No. A diligent search of my previous comments on HN will remind readers that I participated in the Restore the Fourth public protests in Minneapolis last summer,[1] and in general I support effective civilian oversight by elected officials of all intelligence and covert action operations of the United States government.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5991375#up_5992149

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7071480#up_7072301

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5985285#up_5985720

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6258037

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#77

Post by tormeh »

bediger4000 wrote: post #73
tormeh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would lose wars, basically. Now, this matters less than it used to in this age of the nuclear bomb, but knowing what other nations are doing and planning is still useful in trade and technology. Knowing more about the market than others means you get better deals and China isn't the only nation doing industrial espionage. Terrorism? It's a pretty pedestrian intelligence agency whose primary aim is to prevent terro…

It would lose wars, basically How do we know this? This strikes me as an assertion without evidence. Are there examples? It also strikes me that the secrecy more often gets used to conceal career-ending mistakes and cost overruns, at least in the USA. Has anybody done an honest assessment of secrecy?

Nazi Germany and Japan partly lost WW2 because the Americans and the British broke their codes. Particularly the Japanese. Had the axis known their codes were broken they would have made new ones. Intelligence gathering would have been worthless without secrecy in this case.

To be honest I don't really know too much about this. I've read Cryptonomicon, and that's basically it. But it would be hard to dispute that signals intelligence is useful in war and that secrecy is necessary for SIGINT to work.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#79

Post by resu_nimda »

tormeh wrote: post #65
resu_nimda wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every national government in the civilized world needs an intelligence-gathering agency that can operate with some degree of operational secrecy. What is the basis for this assertion? What would happen to a nation that didn't have that?

It would lose wars, basically. Now, this matters less than it used to in this age of the nuclear bomb, but knowing what other nations are doing and planning is still useful in trade and technology. Knowing more about the market than others means you get better deals and China isn't the only nation doing industrial espionage. Terrorism? It's a pretty pedestrian intelligence agency whose primary aim is to prevent terro…

China isn't the only nation doing industrial espionage.

Yeah, this is a common argument, the intelligence arms race. It's just...we had the nuclear arms race, which we eventually realized was folly and really could only result in negative impact to humanity, so we started moving towards disarmament...only to start the cycle over again with digital information gathering, which is a lot easier to hide than a nuclear weapons program (and weaves itself into the fabric of citizens' private lives, in that sense it's much more sinister).

Who has the fortitude to step up and lead us (by example) towards a healthier geopolitical climate? Collaboration, not paranoid xenophobic competition. It saddens me (but doesn't surprise me) that my country is driving full speed in the opposite direction.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#80

Post by genericresponse »

lettergram wrote: post #35
rayiner wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had always assumed that for everyone except those with something to lose (e.g. politicians, bureaucrats) that Snowden 's actions were seen in high regard. I imagine this is entirely a function of your social circle. The polls conducted this year have been marginally in favor of his prosecution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentary_on_Edward_Snowden's_... . It's a deeply divisive issue for Americans, though it…

My Dad is the same way, so a few months after first discussing Snowden I decided to write a little satire about living in communist Russia. It was fairly short, probably 3 pages of dark humor, however he got the point and in now at the very least understands why this is important. I think many Americans (especially those who grew up in the cold war) do not realize how serious this is. There was a campaign to white wa…

Well I'm younger and I still think what Snowden did was bad. Moreover, I think you're going a bit far by saying that these are "the same practices" that we fought against in the cold war. I would argue that we don't have nearly the grievances that those living under late 20th century communism did.

My big two are: 1. Food and goods shortages requiring long lines. 2. Extreme restrictions on freedom to travel. (You must have your papers to go to the next town, state, etc.) Overall my biggest issue is that communism sought to convert the entire world and that it was intrusive into its citizen's daily lives.

My big issues with Snowden: 1. Most of this was strongly suspected/known. See the Wired article from 2 years before about the Utah data center. 2. If he did this on principle why not face the consequences of his actions. This has been a principle of resistance for years. 3. The documentation he leaked went beyond the scope of potential constitutional violations into tradecraft and technique. He turned over a treasure trove of information to foreign spy services.

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