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Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

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Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've highlighted one of the most important fallacies in the modern liberal's mindset, in my opinion... Completely unnecessary partisan drivel. The man asked a question and you made a useless generalization that shows, more than anything else, that you don't understand your opposition's socioeconomic philosophy. However, you are correct, currency is simply a tangible representation of value. Wealth is not a zero-sum…

And, you are correct; I don't understand the socialist philosophy, it's incredibly illogical.

Ah, well, at least you associate "liberal" with socialist. Lots of progress made today...

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#72
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be a half-respectable position, if libertarians were against all concentrations of power. But they're not. They're more than happy to give corporations and individuals all the power their money can buy them. Also, libertarians have plenty of scorn for what the government does wrong, but little respect for what it does right. The EPA, before the anti-EPA right wing nuts of the bush administration took it ov…

Could you give me an example where FDA has done a good job? Let me give you some examples of where they have fucked up. * Seven thousand people die every year because the FDA hasn't approved the Ambu CardioPump, a CPR device that is available in just about every other industrialized country. * Nine hundred people die every year because the FDA hasn't approved the OmniCarbon heart valve, which also is in use just abou…

How is the FDA useful?

From http://fdaissues.blogspot.com/2008/03/upton-sinclair-book-ju...

In "The Jungle", Upton Sinclair, "wrote about how dead rats were shoveled into sausage grinding machines. He explained, in nauseating detail, how diseased cows were slaughtered for beef; how guts and garbage were swept off the floor and sold as "potted ham."

Upton Sinclair even described how the occasional worker would fall into a meat-processing tank and be ground, along with animal parts, into "Durham's Pure Leaf Lard."

The Chicago meat-packing industry was in deep trouble after Sinclair's landmark book, The Jungle, was published in 1906. It caused outrage in America and abroad and meat sales fell by half. The book forced the government to pass the Meat Inspection Act and the Pure Food and Drug Act, which established the Food and Drug Administration."

That's one of the things the FDA does right. I, for one, am glad I'm not eating rat sausage and meatpacker lard.

Another thing it does right is requiring food and drugs have all their ingredients listed on them. I am appalled when I buy other products, such as various cleaners and other chemicals, which are not under the jurisdiction of the FDA and could have all sorts of carcinogenic and dangerous chemicals in them without my even being aware of them, because they are not required to list their ingredients on their labels. I am glad that at least the food and medicines I consume do require strict labeling.

While many people may have died waiting for various drugs and medical devices to get FDA approval, there are also no doubt countless thousands saved because this approval was required. All you have to do is look at the days before the FDA existed to see the mountains of snake oil garbage that was peddled to American consumers (things like these radioactive quack cures: http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/quackcures/quackcures.htm )

I am quite grateful to be living in the days of the FDA, and wouldn't want to go back to the pre-FDA era.

This is not to say the FDA is perfect, by any means. It's been affected by budget cuts and has a huge conflict of interest in its sometimes incestuous relationships with the corporations it is supposed to regulate.

These deficiencies are cause for reform (perhaps even radical reform) but not for elimination of the FDA altogether.

As for the complaints of your friend in the medical industry, I agree that the approval process takes too long. More funding of the FDA, and perhaps even requiring the FDA to conduct its own studies (eliminating the corporation from the loop, which have a conflict of interest in testing the safety of their own products anyway) would help.

I have a friend of my own, who worked as an internal safety inspector in a pharmaceutical plant owned by a major pharmaceutical company. He said that the plant should have gotten closed a decade ago because of its poor safety record (for which it had been sited by the FDA many times in the past), but it stayed open because the company's CEO had a lot of pull in the FDA.

This sort of thing calls for tougher regulation, not weaker regulation (much less the elimination of the FDA altogether).

As to your point about education vouchers, those are mainly used by right-wing religious fanatics, who are dissatisfied with the "liberal", desegregated education their kids would get in public school and want to get their kids in to religious schools and schools which are free to discriminate in ways public schools can't. I see no evidence that the voucher system would work for a wider segment of the population. Again, the people who would most benefit from this would be the rich, and religious, racist nuts.

See this report on vouchers from the Anti-Defamation League, http://www.adl.org/vouchers/vouchers_main.asp

which, among other things, notes that:

"Under a system of vouchers, it may be difficult to prevent schools run by extremist groups like the Nation of Islam or the Ku Klux Klan from receiving public funds to subsidize their racist and anti-Semitic agendas."

Finally, your point about libertarianism not suggesting concentration of power. On the face of it, this is true, since libertarians never actually come out and say they suggest concentration of power. However, it's not difficult to read between the lines and see that's exactly what will happen when the checks that the government keeps on corporations (the EPA and FDA being just two of many good examples) are removed.

In fact, we have already seen what this is like. It's happened in America during the days of the Robber Barrons, where child labor, an 80-hour work week, workers being literally chained to their desks in sweatshops, the abominable conditions described in Sinclair's "The Jungle", no worker safety regulations in the workplace, and no environmental regulations were quite common. I do not want to go back to those days.

Apart from increased concentration of power in corporations, which libertarianism is powerless against, there's also the concentration of power in individuals, which the US system as a whole does a piss-poor job at controlling. That definitely needs work, but libertarians have nothing to say on the matter. If Bill Gates managed to get his hands on all of the world's wealth (or even, say, all the world's water) and the rest of the people on Earth had none, libertarians would presumably not have any problem with that. But thankfully, many other people do have a problem with that kind of inequitable distribution of wealth and power and will work to prevent it.

Another example of the government doing good work is when it manages to break up monopolies. However, it doesn't do nearly as good a job at this as it should (else Microsoft would have been broken up decades ago, and the media consolidation that's happened in the last decade or so would never have been allowed to take place). But, again, I don't see why libertarians would have any problem with monopolies (unless they're government monopolies, in which case they'll raise a stink).

I believe that for most libertarians, the rhetoric of caring for liberty is a mask for not caring much about anyone who can't make it the rat race of the social darwinists. This is why it's really no suprise that many libertarians are wealthy, highly educated types that imagine themselves made in the mold of Randian heroes. Conversely, you're not going to find many libertarians in the projects (with the possible exception of the drug dealers). And the only libertarians you're likely to find out in the sticks are the militia members and gun nuts who believe in conspiracy theories featuring the UN taking over the US, and the like. Fortunately, the majority of Americans haven't bought in to this bleak vision (yet).

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#73
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think people here tend to run more libertarian than socialist. I wish we spent less on the defense, but the amount spent on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid sits fine with me. I consider that social infrastructure. When large portions of society go without, all of society suffers. We see ourselves as fitting into society in different ways. You feel that the government is taking your money in the form…

Why is the social security/medicare/medicaid program okie with you? What is 'social infrastructure'? Why do you think that government can do a better job at spending your money than you alone? Check my other comment where I have written about money spending patterns. Also in another reply I have written about the amount of waste/fraud incurred by medicare/medicaid. Trust me, I have no problem with taxes, I understand…

When you can get 40% off the retail price of basic medicine because you can negotiate drug prices en-masse, let me know.

Or how about when making sure education reaches everyone's hands.

See, the funny thing about people defending libertarian positions is that if they hadn't lived in a country with a public education infrastructure, roads, fire brigade and energy, it would be very unlikely that they'd had the capacity to acquire the knowledge and stability they'd need to become what they are today.

The inescapable fact is that they did nothing to "deserve" their health care of education through their infancy, yet it's one of the core reasons they got here, and they have the gall to complain about it.

Evidenced by the high standards of living in countries which do have social infrastructure (and yes, it exists, no need to put quotes around it) it works, and works reasonably well.

Doing infrastructure planning and development for millions of people kicks in economies of scale which are unachievable otherwise. History has effectively shown that social benefits that guarantee a minimal level of rights for education and health have dramatic effects in social mobility and overall quality of life.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a dollar made at the end of a gun and a dollar made because the purchase was a pareto improvement aren't the same thing. that you could equate the two means that you equate logos and pathos.

Actually, he was making the comparison. Consider, someone who sells weapons is doing exactly what he is talking about: selling people what they want. Economically, this can generally be considered a decent position. Unfortunately, its morally a bad one. My point was that is essential to consider both. Just because someone produces a product that serves a client base and produces a profit doesn't excuse moral issues.…

I was unaware that inanimate objects can be morally bad. when guns aren't available in africa villages are simply butchered with machetes. at least a gun can be used equally well by a woman or child as well as a man.

there is a simple solution: don't do business with people who use force, since there is no indication they won't eventually use force on you. do not do business with people who do business with people who use force, they aren't very bright for the above mentioned reason.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm... from 1991 to 2009 we've had 2 web bubbles. Maybe that had something to do with it? But you're still ignoring the core issue.

What those two bubbles have to do with India's progress? Also, I am not ignoring core issue. Your solution is that someone in Washington DC should decide how to spend money and solve problems for people living in a country as big as America and I am suggesting that we treat people like adult and let them take care of themselves and minimize the role of government in our lives.

And when they don't take care of themselves?

And really? you see no correlation between the internet bubbles and India's recent economic growth?

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, he was making the comparison. Consider, someone who sells weapons is doing exactly what he is talking about: selling people what they want. Economically, this can generally be considered a decent position. Unfortunately, its morally a bad one. My point was that is essential to consider both. Just because someone produces a product that serves a client base and produces a profit doesn't excuse moral issues.…

I was unaware that inanimate objects can be morally bad. when guns aren't available in africa villages are simply butchered with machetes. at least a gun can be used equally well by a woman or child as well as a man. there is a simple solution: don't do business with people who use force, since there is no indication they won't eventually use force on you. do not do business with people who do business with people wh…

What are you talking about?

I was unaware that inanimate objects can be morally bad.

I don't remember saying anything remotely like that. I was talking about selling guns to both sides in an armed conflict for profit. Every comment you seem to change the topic a little bit more.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you really think someone else knows better than you what to do you with your own hard earned money?" You're not answering my question. I trust myself, heck you seem smart enough, I even trust you. I don't trust large sections of my country and you don't have a solution for dealing with the people who decide to spend their money irrationally. You can not call America a libertarian country and wave it like an examp…

India became independent from British rule in 1947. It opened up economy in 1991. India has progressed more in last 18 years (from 1991 to 2009) than it did in 44 years (1947 to 1991). You can confirm this with any Indian who is more than 30 years old. [Compared this to US which has been independent since 1788, more than 200 years] I hope you would agree that poverty can not be eliminated overnight. I am thrilled tha…

Finally, someone thinks like I do! It's amazing to see that people from outside of America think along the lines of preventing government from overstepping its boundary while many Americans, (NOTE: I am American), are happily starting to let the government intervene in their life.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#78
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you really think someone else knows better than you what to do you with your own hard earned money?" You're not answering my question. I trust myself, heck you seem smart enough, I even trust you. I don't trust large sections of my country and you don't have a solution for dealing with the people who decide to spend their money irrationally. You can not call America a libertarian country and wave it like an examp…

> I don't trust large sections of my country and you don't have a solution for dealing with the people who decide to spend their money irrationally. I've got news for you. I don't trust YOU to decide how to spend their money or my money. Yes, people do dumb things with their money. However, they do dumber things with other people's money. And, since the potential damange is greater in the latter case than in the form…

So what no gov't? No taxes? Every year we just let everyone pay what they think roads/school/defense deserves?

What do you do with large populations of kids can't go to school because their parents don't want to pay for it.

Or people die because of lack of food and drug regulation

Or when kids break their legs without health insurance.

Or when our parents and grandparents don't have a retirement fund because they saved foolishly.

I fail to see how having a gov't spending our money makes the potential damage worse.

The list goes on.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#79
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't trust large sections of my country and you don't have a solution for dealing with the people who decide to spend their money irrationally. I've got news for you. I don't trust YOU to decide how to spend their money or my money. Yes, people do dumb things with their money. However, they do dumber things with other people's money. And, since the potential damange is greater in the latter case than in the form…

So what no gov't? No taxes? Every year we just let everyone pay what they think roads/school/defense deserves? What do you do with large populations of kids can't go to school because their parents don't want to pay for it. Or people die because of lack of food and drug regulation Or when kids break their legs without health insurance. Or when our parents and grandparents don't have a retirement fund because they sav…

Or people die because of lack of food and drug regulation?

This happens every day.

Or people die because of lack of food and drug regulation?

This also happens every day.

Or when our parents and grandparents don't have a retirement fund because they saved foolishly?

So does this.

Re: Mark Cuban: The most patriotic thing you can do is "get rich"

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, he was making the comparison. Consider, someone who sells weapons is doing exactly what he is talking about: selling people what they want. Economically, this can generally be considered a decent position. Unfortunately, its morally a bad one. My point was that is essential to consider both. Just because someone produces a product that serves a client base and produces a profit doesn't excuse moral issues.…

I was unaware that inanimate objects can be morally bad. when guns aren't available in africa villages are simply butchered with machetes. at least a gun can be used equally well by a woman or child as well as a man. there is a simple solution: don't do business with people who use force, since there is no indication they won't eventually use force on you. do not do business with people who do business with people wh…

ah, i ca never tell on the internet exactly what people are trying to say.

my solution still stands. coercion is wrong, profiting from coercion is wrong, akin to selling torture implements.

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