Growing-ups • Hacker News Board

Re: Growing-ups

#71

Post by ameister14 » Fri, Apr 18, 2014, 9:10 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #40

dropit_sphere wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unfortunately, lots of jobs are both needed and full of drudgery. I get the feeling millennials are calling that bluff: "If it's so needed, why won't they hire me for it/why doesn't it pay more?'

* why won't they hire me for it Because "you" got a humanities degree and "it" is a tradesperson job which does not "make the world better". "You" chose to pursue "fun and interesting", and didn't run the numbers on "ROI", which only geeks, low-class people, and in-it-for-the-money people did. * why doesn't it pay more? Because experience counts a tremendous amount, far more than willingness to show up. /me shrug A l…

I don't think either of those answers is correct.

Bettering yourself with hard work is a religious notion. It's not necessarily true, but it's good for people that own things that need to be worked on, like farmland. It keeps people working.

If the jobs are necessary, though, they should be paid with that in mind. They are not. Manufacturing production is up, but wages are stagnant. I don't think it's entitlement that makes people recognize that.

Most people that now trust in 'The Great Hand of Bettering Yourself By Hard Work' as you put it will be out of a job in 30 years; we've already started that trend.

Re: Growing-ups

#72

Post by sbilstein » Fri, Apr 18, 2014, 10:24 PM UTC

bosie wrote: post #69

sbilstein wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same way. My success as a programmer is some combination of luck and hard work, but it'd be unfair to judge others based on the kind of luck I've had. I was lucky to have been exposed to computing at an early age, stumble upon source code for qbasic games, like programming, major in it, and happen to have my graduation date align with a huge period of growth in our industry. Good luck magnifies the effect…

Success as a programmer meaning what exactly? Salary or knowledge? If its the former, i reckon ""with a huge period of growth in our industry" has a lot more to do with it than anything else you did. If you studied ancient greek instead, all the hard work in the world wouldn't have helped you.

Yep, I agree completely. That's what I meant by "Good luck magnifies the effect of hard work, bad luck can make it appear non-existent."

Re: Growing-ups

#73

Post by morgante » Fri, Apr 18, 2014, 11:09 PM UTC

bradleysmith wrote: post #67

morgante wrote: post #29

I really hate this term "emerging adults." Suddenly we're not full adults anymore, just because many people of my generation have failed to live up to the standard of adulthood? I really hope this isn't a trend/term which catches on and justifies continued ageism or the denial of rights. In general, I've always hated these "generational" descriptions. They're guaranteed to be woefully inaccurate for many people in th…

At 27, I've worked over 10 jobs since 18. I've been a janitor, wrenched rods in the oil field, ranch-handed horses, worked construction, tutored students, edited news publications, and many other things to make money. I did most of these things while going to school, not to make ends meet but to HELP lighten the requirement of money I borrowed from my parents, whom I'm lucky to have willing and able to lend me that m…

Sorry, maybe my comment was unclear, but I didn't mean to imply that university students who don't pay their own way are "failures." While I might have been lucky enough to get substantial scholarships, that isn't the expectation/norm.

The shift isn't in expectations of university students, but in expectations of new graduates. That's what this article seems to be focusing on, and the group which is generally lampooned more broadly (graduates who are still living at home).

The term "emerging adult" does a lot of damage. Like you, I have a great role at a startup. But if our entire generation is lumped into a category of "emerging adults" who can barely hold down a job, our opportunities for advancement and appreciation are severely limited. People's experiences in their 20s are just too divergent (some people are still working temp gigs, while you're a VP) for any useful generations and labels like "emerging adults" only serve to discourage/diminish young achievement.

Suddenly we have to be 30 to considered an adult, even if we're entirely self-sufficient?

Re: Growing-ups

#74

Post by nileshtrivedi » Sat, Apr 19, 2014, 11:02 AM UTC

declan wrote: post #39

nileshtrivedi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What precisely is it about having a child and having a mortgage that qualifies someone as "grown-up"? (I'm speaking as someone who has a wife, a kid and a house bought outright).

>What precisely is it about having a child and having a mortgage that qualifies someone as "grown-up"? It's shorthand for assuming adult responsibilities. It's difficult to survive on your emotionally fulfilling but minimum wage job if you have a brood in diapers at home. Obviously you still have responsibilities, probably including property taxes, insurance, and utilities, if you own your house outright as opposed t…

I understand that IF you have a spouse or kids, it's your responsibility to take care of them and provide the best possible environment for them to flourish.

But it does not follow that it's one's responsibility to marry and have kids. There have been plenty of people who contributed a lot to society without ever marrying or raising kids.

You're right that managing a family is shorthand for being responsible. My point is: why use a shorthand when you can simply ask "So what are you doing with all the extra time you get because of not having a family?".

Ask, don't presume.

(I am not even getting into the whole philosophical debate of whether "work == virtue". The subtext in comments like the above is: "Oh, you're living a comfortable life with no responsibilities? You should work hard and suffer like the rest of us!" )

Re: Growing-ups

#75

Post by rayiner » Sat, Apr 19, 2014, 9:50 PM UTC

pawelk wrote: post #63

rayiner wrote: post #4

I don't know if this is a "new" stage of life or rather a return to an earlier way of life. The whole phenomenon of kids leaving the house at 18, moving across the country, and not coming home again is fairly recent and fairly unique to the Western world. My wife and I are "grown ups" in the sense that we both are done with grad school, have professional jobs, and have a kid. Yet, my mom lives with us during the week…

> The whole phenomenon of kids leaving the house at 18, moving across the country, and not coming home again is fairly recent and fairly unique to the Western world. I live in Poland and I'm the first generation that grew up after the fall of communism. I have seen this transition first-hand. I grew up in a multi-generation home with my grandparents and parents sharing the same space. I have left at 19 to another cit…

As someone with no experience with Poland, that description was fascinating. Thank you for sharing!

> I don't know of anyone from my generation who would event think of building a house with their future kids and grandchildren in mind. But I think we're trading an important aspect of our culture for... I don't know. Money, success, independence, all these western things.

Maybe somewhat ironically, for my wife and I our living situation has been driven by the pursuit of career success. My wife and I are at the stage of our careers where we're really putting in the hours, and sharing a household with my parents makes life a hundred times easier. We don't have to worry about getting home before the nanny has to go, we don't have to worry about taking a day off when the baby's daycare is closed. We come home to a hot meal. Meanwhile, my parents are thrilled to be so actively invoked in their granddaughter's life.

Re: Growing-ups

#76

Post by eli_gottlieb » Mon, Apr 21, 2014, 4:18 PM UTC

pistle wrote: post #14

You now what this article needs? More cowbell! I mean graphs! This is a social phenomenon being critiqued using self-reported social scoring without tying it back to either theoretical or applied economic models. If large swaths are asked fairly banal "Will you get what you want out of life?" questions with waaaaaay more rigorous subjective and practical analysis a bigger picture can't be assessed. Elders "ridiculing…

>delayed productive income acquisition

That's a really fancy way to say long-term unemployment.

Re: Growing-ups

#77

Post by eli_gottlieb » Mon, Apr 21, 2014, 4:21 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #40

dropit_sphere wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unfortunately, lots of jobs are both needed and full of drudgery. I get the feeling millennials are calling that bluff: "If it's so needed, why won't they hire me for it/why doesn't it pay more?'

* why won't they hire me for it Because "you" got a humanities degree and "it" is a tradesperson job which does not "make the world better". "You" chose to pursue "fun and interesting", and didn't run the numbers on "ROI", which only geeks, low-class people, and in-it-for-the-money people did. * why doesn't it pay more? Because experience counts a tremendous amount, far more than willingness to show up. /me shrug A l…

>"You" chose to pursue "fun and interesting", and didn't run the numbers on "ROI", which only geeks, low-class people, and in-it-for-the-money people did.

Except that the "geek" industry in Silicon Valley bills itself constantly as all about "passion" and "disruption" and "changing the world" (with $0.99 in-app purchases).

Re: Growing-ups

#78

Post by wtbob » Mon, Apr 21, 2014, 6:28 PM UTC

nileshtrivedi wrote: post #74

declan wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What precisely is it about having a child and having a mortgage that qualifies someone as "grown-up"? It's shorthand for assuming adult responsibilities. It's difficult to survive on your emotionally fulfilling but minimum wage job if you have a brood in diapers at home. Obviously you still have responsibilities, probably including property taxes, insurance, and utilities, if you own your house outright as opposed t…

I understand that IF you have a spouse or kids, it's your responsibility to take care of them and provide the best possible environment for them to flourish. But it does not follow that it's one's responsibility to marry and have kids. There have been plenty of people who contributed a lot to society without ever marrying or raising kids. You're right that managing a family is shorthand for being responsible. My poin…

> But it does not follow that it's one's responsibility to marry and have kids. There have been plenty of people who contributed a lot to society without ever marrying or raising kids.

One's responsibility is to do the right thing, to do one's duty. For some folks, that duty has not been to form a family, but for the vast majority of folks their duty has been to do exactly that: to repay their ancestors' millions of years of evolutionary investment by investing in their descendants.

There are some folks who have repaid that rather massive debt in other ways, but they are few and far between; far more these days simply renege on it.

Re: Growing-ups

#79

Post by taybin » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 1:48 PM UTC

hrktb wrote: post #66

taybin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say these were good ideas. But I definitely look at my life differently now that I'm on the other side of the line.

I'm sorry, it sounded slightly flippant but I don't think a loan is inherently bad. I also went through the mortgage process, and the back and forth with the bank and seller felt a lot like trying to get validated as a proper member of society. Apart from the purely financial aspect of it, it's fascinating how the process goes will vary on your profession, your familial situation, overall background, years working in…

Yep, exactly.

Re: Growing-ups

#80

Post by diegomcfly » Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

UK-AL wrote: post #38

diegomcfly wrote: post #19

If you are an "emerging adult" at age 30, then there is a problem. Further, the author of this article claiming that these so called "emerging adults" are not lazy or self-entitled is ridiculous. It is clearly a case of "first world problems". The mere fact that these "emerging adults" have the luxury of living "on the dole" (whether parental or governmental) while they "figure out what they want to do with their liv…

Most survival work like that doesn't pay that well, so you would not be able to get shelter, food etc anyway. A large majority of professional jobs in business, programming, accountancy, consultancy are filled with people who want to be there. I am in a professional job, and I doubt I could afford a decent place to live without parental help other than a crappy flat in a dodgy area. How people afford to live by thems…

>I am in a professional job, and I doubt I could afford a decent place to live without parental help other than a crappy flat in a dodgy area.

Then live in a the "crappy flat in a dodgy area".

>How people afford to live by themselves, on non-professional jobs I don't know.

Then don't live by yourself. I had 2 and 3 roommates over various times as a young person getting started. We split the rent in crappy small apartments.