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Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

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Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#71

Post by sliverstorm »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

That was my first fear, actually. Reading the headline, cold chill "They can't have been stupid enough to build the Tesla with Ethernet instead of CAN bus, right?"

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#72

Post by sliverstorm »

[deleted] wrote: post #70
mitchellh wrote: post #3

The cool things: Tesla is running Linux (!) and standard technologies/protocols such as SSH, NFS, X11, HTTP, etc. to do things in the car. That is cool, and probably highly efficient since developer test labs can probably just be basic Ubuntu-like virtual machines. The sketchy things: Jailbreaking a car seems pretty dangerous, especially since as far as I'm aware, the electronic systems control things including the b…

[deleted]

The difference is my confidence in my own abilities as a driver, vs. my confidence in the development abilities (and trustworthiness) of a disjoint anonymous network of people with zero accountability.

There's nothing inherently wrong with assuming control. But driving a car has only 5 linear inputs. Well, 4 if it is a slushbox.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#73

Post by Vespasian »

jnbiche wrote: post #23
driverdan wrote: post #4

“Tesla USA engineers have seen a tentative of hacking on my car.”, “can be related to industrial espionage and advised me to stop investigation, to not void the warranty”. So long as you don't cause any damage they can't void your warranty in the US thanks to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.

And that's a mighty hacker-unfriendly stance to take for a company whose client base is made up of a disproportionately large number of engineers and computer scientists, many of whom will doubtless be curious as to the inner workings of their car computer systems. I mean, could you imagine if a car manufacturer took this attitude toward car owners who were exploring the car's transmission, which is clearly just as c…

I think there is a difference between hacking (or even exploring) something like a phone, game console or router and a car, plane or any other thing that can immediately put in danger the live and health of many unrelated persons.

Therefore I thinks Tesla acts as responsible as they should when detecting and reacting upon active (as opposed to passively analyzing radio transmissions) manipulation of their cars inner systems. As other comments have pointed out you don't want to find out about bugs in critical systems triggered by your entertainment system jailbreak when driving with 100km/h+ on a crowded highway.

Your phone hack / mod fails badly => Buy a new phone Your car hack fails badly => People die

It's simply not worth it.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#74

Post by Dylan16807 »

takeda wrote: post #28
jnbiche wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a mighty hacker-unfriendly stance to take for a company whose client base is made up of a disproportionately large number of engineers and computer scientists, many of whom will doubtless be curious as to the inner workings of their car computer systems. I mean, could you imagine if a car manufacturer took this attitude toward car owners who were exploring the car's transmission, which is clearly just as c…

Given that the fires were blown out of proportion by the media, I'm totally not surprised that they reacted this way. Imagine headlines if someone would be killed due to not correctly operating component because the owner used a buggy mod.

If that's possible from the entertainment system bus rather than hotwiring chips and critical inaccessible wires, they deserve such headlines.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#75

Post by [deleted] »

sliverstorm wrote: post #72
[deleted] wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

The difference is my confidence in my own abilities as a driver, vs. my confidence in the development abilities (and trustworthiness) of a disjoint anonymous network of people with zero accountability. There's nothing inherently wrong with assuming control. But driving a car has only 5 linear inputs. Well, 4 if it is a slushbox.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#76

Post by dutchbrit »

jotm wrote: post #54
j-g-faustus wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different in a number of ways: Suppose it's not you hacking your car, it's an enemy that want you dead. So they disable the brakes. Or perhaps it's possible for an attacker to disable the brakes only when you're braking hard and have a speed above 100 km/h (60 mph). Or suppose a neighborhood kid is angry at you, have figured out how to hack the system, but haven't yet figured out the difference between "that'll…

Cutting the brake lines or using a kitchen knife (or a gun bought off Craigslist in the US) to kill the person you hate works just as well and is much simpler. I personally would like to see various "hacks" adjusting the suspension, brakes, spark timings and other things for a better ride in certain conditions (racing, drifting, mountain roads, etc).

The scary thing would be if people started writing viruses aimed at infecting Tesla's. And when I say viruses, I don't mean the type that mine doge :)

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#77

Post by tlrobinson »

anologwintermut wrote: post #51
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

Sadly, the segregation between CAN buses is not nearly as good as you would think. ONSTAR, for example, sits on the drive critical bus (and is exploitable). Of course, this is not on a Tesla, but still. http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf

Assassination via car hacking would have seemed like sci-fi a decade or two ago.

See Michael Hastings conspiracy theories: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-ca...

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#78

Post by rdl »

tlrobinson wrote: post #77
anologwintermut wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, the segregation between CAN buses is not nearly as good as you would think. ONSTAR, for example, sits on the drive critical bus (and is exploitable). Of course, this is not on a Tesla, but still. http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf

Assassination via car hacking would have seemed like sci-fi a decade or two ago. See Michael Hastings conspiracy theories: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-ca...

Assassination via physical-access car hacking (cutting brake lines, etc.) has been around for a long time. Seems like a small jump to electronic.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#79

Post by TeMPOraL »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

> I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems.

I'm still surprised people think like this. We had 60+ years of technology hacking to learn that if it is not airgapped, it can be hacked. And even if it is, it probably still can be (cf. Stuxnet). So while I doubt Tesla is using Ethernet to control critical car systems, I also don't think that they can't be tinkered with using that port if someone cares hard enough to try.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#80

Post by TeMPOraL »

viraptor wrote: post #21
mitchellh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, I agree, but the software update mechanism is somehow able to update or interface with that system. If you're able to jailbreak _that_, then its one less barrier in the way of taking over the drive control.

I'm sure only signed updates are allowed. Same as with intel microcode updates and most firmwares. They'd be highly irresponsible if jailbreaking was left possible.

Jailbreaking is always possible, period. It's only matter of trying hard enough, and (un)fortunately, it's usually enough for one person to put the effort once, and then everybody can use the results.
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