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Holacracy is Bullshit

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Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#71

Post by saraid216 »

rjknight wrote: post #42

The problem with management isn’t managers, the problem with management is bad managers. So, on the one hand, we have what we might call the Lord of the Flies narrative - that Github's pseudo-anarchic non-management just enables people's worst traits to come to the surface; it doesn't remove power imbalances, it just hides them and makes it harder to challenge illegitimate use of that power because it's harder to ide…

> we have what we might call the Milgram Experiment narrative - that authority positions are naturally corrupting, making belief in good management seem utopian

Wait, what the hell? Milgram's experiments, whether or not you find them valid (they're quite problematic on close inspection) had a narrative about proving that normal people were obedient. It has nothing to do with the corruptive influence of power.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#72

Post by aeflash »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #31

This is fucking stupid, given we have almost literally no information about what has happened at Github, nor the extent to which any events were due to an absence of hierarchy. I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

Actually, we have a pretty good amount of information. We have one point of view from the employee who left, a message from Github that mostly confirms her story, as well as knowledge about how Github works internally. We have good reason to believe that was is on the table is mostly true, therefore it's not inappropriate to theorize about how things could have been done better, especially since similar stories may play (or have played out) out at other companies.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#73

Post by tsax »

brvs wrote: post #56
tsax wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but all such questions can lead to un-PC conclusions, therefore you may want to keep quiet.

Like what?

Just game out possible trails of thought. The most 'offensive' one may be true. That's all I'll say.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#74

Post by bryanlarsen »

hapless wrote: post #26
jowiar wrote: post #16

To me, Github's structure is largely an overreaction to the culture flaws elsewhere. Belief that managers are more valuable than doers, and thus paid more. Belief that engineers are infinitely replaceable. Belief that one should be paid proportionate to the number of people below them in the org chart. Management has a purpose - but companies poor treatment of engineers over the years has blinded many engineers to th…

Managers' higher pay isn't some kind of conspiracy squatting in the industry. It's the result of market forces. Those outside pressures will not evaporate simply because we do not like them. Pay grades are telling us things we do not wish to hear: - engineers are more replaceable than their managers - management staff are consistently difficult to find

I think your second point is the key one, I don't think the first point is necessarily valid.

It could well be that good managers are much more common than good engineers, but that the essential problem is that it's hard to find good managers and the consequences of hiring a bad manager are much worse than that of hiring a bad engineer.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#75

Post by asgard1024 »

I've always found these attempts for "holacracy" as efforts to square the circle. There is actually a solution to this problem - it's called democracy. Every person gets the same amount of power - one vote, and they can decide things (or decide they don't care). This is compatible with hierarchies, both formal and informal, but the authority is challenged all the time (which is a good thing). Some companies work like that, they are called worker cooperatives, but they are rare. Any eventual power cliques have hard time to be stable in such environment, because the power is equally distributed by default and according to a fixed, well-known rule. This actually allows participants to focus on production rather than politics.

But this is seldom what the owners of the company (who invested capital) want. They don't want people to run things, they want people to run things on their behalf (and get rich from the process). And even if they were sympathetic to this idea, it's very hard to grow such a company at all stages (in small group it's very prone to hostile takeovers and later there is no incentive to grow, since the power of individuals is always the same compared to number of people).

I don't see transition to democratic workplace happening unless lots of people give up any hope to have more power than other people. Interestingly, in political system, this largely happened, although it's still not enough and there is resentment from some.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#76

Post by [deleted] »

pron wrote: post #64
matthewmacleod wrote: post #31

This is fucking stupid, given we have almost literally no information about what has happened at Github, nor the extent to which any events were due to an absence of hierarchy. I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

These aren't pet theories but an excellent starting point for a discussion. I would have expected a community of smart individuals to sincerely examine these accusations, even if they are not the whole story behind this current scandal, because we could only benefit from such a discussion. That this article has been flagged by several people only demonstrates a great level of immaturity and that we, as an industry, m…

[deleted]

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#77

Post by saraid216 »

buro9 wrote: post #39
doktrin wrote: post #7

> When you allow a power vacuum to emerge someone will fill it, and it’s usually the people who have traditionally held power I've never really given this issue much thought, but it sounds reasonable. Illusions can be dangerous, including the illusion of equality. I was instantly reminded of the famous commandment in Animal Farm : "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" . It now seems alm…

It's not that you can't have flat hierarchy, it's that you have to ensure that it's supported by transparency and process to then prevent it actually being a mask for another power structure. That is the major failing with a lot of the companies doing this. The belief that everyone shares the same ideals and it will work itself out without requiring very strict constraints and process. All that happens is that the in…

> It's not that you can't have flat hierarchy, it's that you have to ensure that it's supported by transparency and process to then prevent it actually being a mask for another power structure.

To wit, this is the actual democratic experiment that people keep thinking they refer to when talking about America.

"Holacracies" aren't impossible. It's just that they're hard. Brady's point is more that many people refuse to admit this and, accordingly, run into the worst problems posed rather than having ways to deal with them as they arise.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#78

Post by shadowfox »

pron wrote: post #64
matthewmacleod wrote: post #31

This is fucking stupid, given we have almost literally no information about what has happened at Github, nor the extent to which any events were due to an absence of hierarchy. I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

These aren't pet theories but an excellent starting point for a discussion. I would have expected a community of smart individuals to sincerely examine these accusations, even if they are not the whole story behind this current scandal, because we could only benefit from such a discussion. That this article has been flagged by several people only demonstrates a great level of immaturity and that we, as an industry, m…

> I would have expected a community of smart individuals to sincerely examine these accusations

From my experience, smartness, sincerity and a sufficiently malleable ego (that enables one to look at accusations constructively) don't always go hand-in-hand. They seem like orthogonal qualities.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#79

Post by gwern »

saraid216 wrote: post #71
rjknight wrote: post #42

The problem with management isn’t managers, the problem with management is bad managers. So, on the one hand, we have what we might call the Lord of the Flies narrative - that Github's pseudo-anarchic non-management just enables people's worst traits to come to the surface; it doesn't remove power imbalances, it just hides them and makes it harder to challenge illegitimate use of that power because it's harder to ide…

> we have what we might call the Milgram Experiment narrative - that authority positions are naturally corrupting, making belief in good management seem utopian Wait, what the hell? Milgram's experiments, whether or not you find them valid (they're quite problematic on close inspection) had a narrative about proving that normal people were obedient . It has nothing to do with the corruptive influence of power.

He probably just mixed up Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment with Milgram's electroshock experiment. They're often discussed together.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#80

Post by __pThrow »

Torgo wrote: post #19

After Jeri Ellsworth was fired from Valve, she had said that the "flat organization" of Valve masked an informal but very real hierarchy that was made up of elites and their cliques. I realize that flat organization is not the same thing as holarchy, but it could be that they both are trading formal hierarchies for informal ones rather than dispensing with them.

This "rings true" to me. That getting rid of formal managers and formal management just lets "petty office politics" rule more than usual.
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