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SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

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Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#71
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience has been similar to yours, but I am not confident that there isn't enough variation in human cognition and physiology that wouldn't still wind up with a lot of drunk drivers if every instance of driving drunk was as described above. This is not inconsistent with the notion that the predominance of effects of drinking on personality/behavior have more of a social basis than a chemical one (as studies hav…

Oh, I definitely think that there are people for who might tend to drive drunk after drinking. I'm just saying that "but I made the decision to drive drunk while drunk" doesn't get any sympathy from me. Even if that sort of behavior while drunk caught them completely off guard the first time it happened (which I think is very unlikely, though not impossible), they later made the decision while sober to drink again. T…

I don't know, but there seems to be an awful lot of rationalization taking place in this and your previous comment.

As a person who drinks socially and is well-aware of my limits, I've rarely moved past a slight buzz. So, when I see a person state that they've repeatedly been drunk to the point of losing consciousness, I think, "now, why would a person do that?" I would have to think that there is at least some impairment when an already extremely inebriated person decides to continue drinking to the point where the only thing that stops him is that he physically cannot continue because he is unconscious.

Yet, you are questioning the judgment of someone who, instead of repeatedly drinking himself into a potential coma, stops somewhere short of that and decides he can operate a vehicle.

I just don't see the difference except that, of course, you can claim moral superiority in that you are presumably only endangering yourself vs. others. But, therein lies the rationalization. And, of course, if you repeatedly drink to the point wherein you literally lose control of your body, then perhaps it's only a matter of time before you endanger someone else somewhere along the continuum of inebriation.

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#72
post #65

>At a mid-morning press conference Thursday, officials said eight people were still in the hospital. Five were in critical condition, and three were listed as serious. I just... I just... WTF. Just WTF. We've had injuries and incidents at SXSW before, but nothing like this. Normally it's just busy nights for paramedics filled with minor injuries. A diabetic might get too drunk to remember to take insulin, or someone…

I don't want to take away from how awful this was, but in 2010 there were 10,228 people killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes[1] - that's 28 each day. So no, I don't think we'll be hearing about this case for the next year - it's actually depressingly typical. It just happens to have occurred at a large event that Hacker News has a strong connection to. [1] http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/…

What I believe was meant was that we in Austin will be hearing about this case for the next year, which we undoubtedly will. Thankfully the crime rate in Austin is such that capital murder cases tend to grab the headlines for quite some time.

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#73
post #63
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. My $100 Garmin GPS tells me what the speed limit is, an what speed I'm doing. I've often wondered why this wasn't just built into cars to ensure they throttle lock at the speed limit.

That would be extremely dangerous.

Why? What's the situation where you would need to go faster than the speed limit?

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#74
post #65

>At a mid-morning press conference Thursday, officials said eight people were still in the hospital. Five were in critical condition, and three were listed as serious. I just... I just... WTF. Just WTF. We've had injuries and incidents at SXSW before, but nothing like this. Normally it's just busy nights for paramedics filled with minor injuries. A diabetic might get too drunk to remember to take insulin, or someone…

I don't want to take away from how awful this was, but in 2010 there were 10,228 people killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes[1] - that's 28 each day. So no, I don't think we'll be hearing about this case for the next year - it's actually depressingly typical. It just happens to have occurred at a large event that Hacker News has a strong connection to. [1] http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/…

The incidents definitely are depressingly typical on a long enough time scale and with a large enough area. Maybe self-driving cars will eventually solve this problem, assuming they don't come with their own problems too. Granted, we felt the same way about airplanes, but it certainly seems that far more airplane crashes are a matter of human error than something the pilot couldn't have controlled. I would love to be able to just nap while my car chauffeured me between San Marcos and Austin every day though...

Seeing as I live in Austin though, I suspect we'll all hear about this on the news occasionally, if only for summaries of the proceedings as they unfold over time.

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#75
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I definitely think that there are people for who might tend to drive drunk after drinking. I'm just saying that "but I made the decision to drive drunk while drunk" doesn't get any sympathy from me. Even if that sort of behavior while drunk caught them completely off guard the first time it happened (which I think is very unlikely, though not impossible), they later made the decision while sober to drink again. T…

I don't know, but there seems to be an awful lot of rationalization taking place in this and your previous comment. As a person who drinks socially and is well-aware of my limits, I've rarely moved past a slight buzz. So, when I see a person state that they've repeatedly been drunk to the point of losing consciousness, I think, "now, why would a person do that?" I would have to think that there is at least some impai…

It's quite a bit easier to drink to that point with some drinks (higher proof) and in some contexts than others (shots vs sipping, peer pressure, distractions). I've never passed out drinking, but I've certainly wound up drunker than I expected on occasion. For someone substantially lighter than I, it could probably sneak up even easier. That said, if someone does so regularly there is probably something else going on.

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#76
post #54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with Codhisattva that in many cases people who are very drunk are not in control of their behavior. Moreover, an alcoholic is, by definition, not able to control his behavior. I have heard first hand accounts from self identified alcoholics of such situations, some of which resulted in a death that the person in question could not even remember. I don't mean to suggest that this is an excuse; in the stories t…

I believe in alcoholism. I believe that anybody can develop a dependence on alcohol. I do not believe that alcohol categorically has the power to make anybody drive drunk. I don't accept "I was drunk" as an excuse for anything, unless you were unknowingly drugged.

I might include "and it was my very first experience with alcohol" as a situation where it is a weak excuse.

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#77

When I think of all the money spent in the name of improving and enriching the lives of human beings, it troubles me that we don't have a reliable solution for ending DUI. I know many companies fund research to end cancer or improve the quality of life for those with various diseases. While this research may help save or improve lives, it's motivated in part by a potential return on investment. Why can't we do someth…

The problem is letting people with DUI back on the roads. The punishments for negligent murder is only a few years; the punishment for just getting caught is often not even jail time, just a short suspension of license. (This guy had 2 DUI arrests already before murdering two people: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020640576_nseattleac... ) The punishments for violating license suspension are minimal. Want to get serious about DUI? Make this the punishment:

1st time: 10 year suspension of driving privileges, monthly random police tailing to make sure you don't drive that day (funded by the violator); if you drive, the rest of your sentence is spent in jail

2nd time: 10 years in jail, permanent driving privileges revoked, monthly police tailing as above.

3rd time: Life in prison

You ever kill or injure someone while DUI: Life in prison

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#78
post #54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with Codhisattva that in many cases people who are very drunk are not in control of their behavior. Moreover, an alcoholic is, by definition, not able to control his behavior. I have heard first hand accounts from self identified alcoholics of such situations, some of which resulted in a death that the person in question could not even remember. I don't mean to suggest that this is an excuse; in the stories t…

I believe in alcoholism. I believe that anybody can develop a dependence on alcohol. I do not believe that alcohol categorically has the power to make anybody drive drunk. I don't accept "I was drunk" as an excuse for anything, unless you were unknowingly drugged.

Gotcha. Not calling it an excuse.

Maybe anyone can become dependent, but not everyone _does_. I think our model of behavior ought to include the recognition that in some cases people are unable to refrain from drinking even though they know, in the abstract, that something terrible is likely to happen sooner or later. Acknowledging that alcoholism is not an excuse doesn't change the fact that some people are apparently undeterred from driving drunk by potential legal sanction. I too would hope that such people just wouldn't drink, but this seems insufficient. I admit that I haven't proposed a solution, I just think it's an interesting problem.

So, having established blame, what next? Ignition interlocks seem like a stop gap. I few months ago I watched a guy come out of a bar, and ask his friend to blow in the breathalyzer installed in his truck. No shit. A solution that is not strictly technical might be called for, but I'm not sure what a social solution looks like.

It seems like people in general are kind of bad at safely operating cars, and drunk people are just even worse. I fantasize that self driving cars. They would never get drunk, or distracted or sleepy or have road rage. Maybe someday driving your own car will seems reckless, pun fully intended.

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#79
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clear that sobriety checkpoints aren't killing people left and right (that's preposterous). But it's not clear (edit: to me) if they actually save any lives for the effort.

Here in Rio de Janeiro (Brazil), they saves lives. People are afraid to go out to drink driving and lost the car (with stay with the police) and the driver's license (1-year without the license and have to go through all the classes to get the license again) plus a fine of R$1,915.65(around US$980). It works here, a lot of people are preferring a cab over the car to go out to places they know they will drink.

That's encouraging. They are not nearly so strict in the US.

Re: SXSW: 2 dead, 23 injured.

#80
post #77

When I think of all the money spent in the name of improving and enriching the lives of human beings, it troubles me that we don't have a reliable solution for ending DUI. I know many companies fund research to end cancer or improve the quality of life for those with various diseases. While this research may help save or improve lives, it's motivated in part by a potential return on investment. Why can't we do someth…

The problem is letting people with DUI back on the roads. The punishments for negligent murder is only a few years; the punishment for just getting caught is often not even jail time, just a short suspension of license. (This guy had 2 DUI arrests already before murdering two people: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020640576_nseattleac... ) The punishments for violating license suspension are minimal. Want to…

Life in prison has got to be one of the worst ways to deal with a criminal. If you think that the danger posed by DUI is worth life in prison, then it should apply to texting/phone use too.
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