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US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

theguardian.com

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Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#71

Post by CWuestefeld »

minimax wrote: post #63
00rion wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government offered a legitimate and effective way for whistleblowers to expose wrongdoing and unconstitutional behavior, perhaps they could limit this type of damage from being done. As it stands, the release of this information could be considered collateral damage as result of their continued persecution of whistleblowers.

The people who are harmed by making this information public is not the U.S. government. Think it through. Who wins by knowing how the US government conducts targeted counterintelligence operations? That will be primarily terrorists, organized crime, and oppressive governments. So then who loses? That will naturally be victims of terrorism, organized crime, and oppressive governments. That is why I don't think it's re…

You're assuming that these programs really are serving to curtail terrorist activities. In fact, that is very much in doubt.

Given that the net effect of these programs, so far as anyone in the government has been able to demonstrate, ranges from zero to trivially small, rendering these programs inoperative will have a zero or trivial positive effect for the terrorists.

I suspect that you're reply that the govt's inability to demonstrate the program's efficacy is because such a demonstration would necessarily reveal so much that the programs would be rendered ineffective in the process. Too damned bad. At some point we've got to touch base with the philosophical foundation on which the government is built. Ultimately, we are the masters, and the government operates only as we allow it to. Allowing the government to circumvent so many of the liberties which the Bill of Rights guarantees will be conserved for the people is to turn the design of our government on its head.

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#72

Post by eliasmacpherson »

cryoshon wrote: post #18
suprgeek wrote: post #10

Many interesting "nuggets" buried in this report. For example: ...A more sophisticated effort, though, relied on intercepting Google Maps queries made on smartphones, and using them to collect large volumes of location information. So successful was this effort that one 2008 document noted that "[i]t effectively means that anyone using Google Maps on a smartphone is working in support of a GCHQ system." At this point…

That was in 2008. Imagine what else they've been able to jimmy in 6 years! I'm still waiting on the reveal that they've stored geolocational data at regular timepoints of every X minutes.

I don't know if 5 billion a day translates to the value of regular or X you have in mind, but mathematically - the answer is yes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tr...

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#73

Post by gress »

rhizome wrote: post #68
gress wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in general, but this is not the smoking gun you are suggesting. Once someone is a target , investigating them in general is legitimate, assuming that there is justification for regarding them as such.

What definition of "target" are you using here? Is the NSA/FBI/CIA/GCHQ/etc. using the same definition?

It doesn't matter all that much. The point is that it's targeted collection - not a general scoop.

It absolutely matters how broad the targeting is, but that is a separate question.

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#74

Post by jonknee »

gress wrote: post #47
jonknee wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm still waiting on the reveal that they've stored geolocational data at regular timepoints of every X minutes. Considering Apple did that on your behalf I would be surprised if this was not the case. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/20/3g-apple-ios-device...

Apple didn't store users location data. Cell tower positrons were cached on iOS devices , and this was turned into a false controversy because sensationalism sells. Citing this piece as if it asserts that Apple collects user location data in the way the parent poster fears the NSA might do is dishonest.

Apple programmed a feature that cached all location data on a file on the iPhone. GCHQ's linked PowerPoint says "If it's on the phone, we can get it". Ergo, GCHQ and the NSA certainly had access to your cached location data if they wanted it. Maybe Apple intended this to be the case, maybe Apple did not, but the mere fact that the file existed is enough that it most certainly could have been scooped up by spooks.

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#75

Post by aryastark »

falcolas wrote: post #2

Anymore, it seems prudent to simply assume that if you use the internet at all, all of the details about you are available to determined individuals, public or private. Even details you've never consciously given out over the internet are available to those with the power and desire to infer from your browsing datasets (see: Target and the pregnant daughter). Someone, please tell me I'm wrong.

I'm afraid it's much worse than that, even. You don't even need to use the internet.

You can be walking down the street and an hour later, unbeknownst to you, your picture makes it to the front page of reddit. It could be that you were skipping work that day, and told your boss you were sick. Or perhaps picking up an engagement ring.

This sort of free-for-all will only get worse as technologies like Google Glass and the so-called "Internet of Things" become mainstream. Your life is now a commodity for internet voyeurism and, possibly, witch hunts.

The tech is ripe for turning citizens against citizens. "Turn in your neighbor for un-American activities" sort of stuff.

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#76

Post by 00rion »

minimax wrote: post #67
00rion wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're being very clear. The victims of terrorism generally don't have access to the information that these counterintelligence operations obtain. In other words, the victims are in the same place they were before they knew what the NSA was capable of. What I think you're saying is doublespeak. To paraphrase your argument, "Snowden is doing damage to our counterintelligence capabilities by releasing thi…

My point was that revealing CI techniques empowers terrorists, which tends to be a bad thing for (potential) victims of terrorism.

That's certainly a possibility. The contrary may prove to be true as well. For example, if I was a terrorist and I knew that the NSA was spying on all my phone communications, I may elect to not use a phone. This means that I'm not as effective at communicating with other terrorists which may reduce the effect I have. You may very well be right though. It's unclear to me.

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#77

Post by dublinben »

ommunist wrote: post #21

Hmmm.... I can see how open source app can exist on githib and in your iTunes if you have Developer Account. But can you be sure it is 100% open source once it went through the AppStore gates? I am just asking.

No, you really can't.

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#78

Post by minimax »

guelo wrote: post #70
minimax wrote: post #57

Exploiting phone information and location is a high-priority effort for the intelligence agencies, as terrorists and other intelligence targets make substantial use of phones in planning and carrying out their activities, for example by using phones as triggering devices in conflict zones. That's a good point and a good reason why it's irresponsible for these newspapers to post the details about this technology. This…

> It also gives a road map to more oppressive governments looking for ways to spy on their citizens. This is just sad. Western governments are the oppressive governments. That we have the “moral high ground” is a lie that’s been used as a weapon by these same warmongering immoral people that have always been in charge. “American exceptionalism” is an immoral indefensible position. To still be trying to state that our…

Western governments are the oppressive governments.

If you think Western governments are the oppressive ones, what do you think about the governments of China, Russia, and Iran?

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#79

Post by pirateking »

The only fix to our information, privacy, and security pop culture is destroying the whole system, and building a new one holistically with a focus on security and education at the lowest levels of the system. This almost certainly means destroying computing as we know it as a prerequisite.

“Once you have something that grows faster than education grows, you're always going to get a pop culture.” - Alan Kay

Re: US and UK spy agencies scoop up private data from 'leaky' phone apps

#80

Post by DerpDerpDerp »

minimax wrote: post #78
guelo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also gives a road map to more oppressive governments looking for ways to spy on their citizens. This is just sad. Western governments are the oppressive governments. That we have the “moral high ground” is a lie that’s been used as a weapon by these same warmongering immoral people that have always been in charge. “American exceptionalism” is an immoral indefensible position. To still be trying to state that our…

Western governments are the oppressive governments. If you think Western governments are the oppressive ones, what do you think about the governments of China, Russia, and Iran?

The US has 1.5 times the number of prisoners as China, with 6.3 times as many per capita.

The US has 2.5 times the number of prisoners as Russia, with 1.2 times as many per capita.

The US has 27.5 times the number of prisoners as the UK, with 5.0 times as many per capita. (Interestingly, China has less prisoners per capita than the UK.)

So you can make a lot of points about the relative quality of those prison experiences (and they might be valid points), but in terms of sheer volume of people that are incarcerated by their own government, the US outstrips both China and Russia by a wide margin - in both absolute and per capita terms.

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