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Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

reuters.com

71–80 of 94 posts

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#71

Not that I'm disagreeing with this outcome at all... But if agreeing not to poach is collusion and conspiracy... Then how is it that it's legal for workers to form unions and strike? Isn't that just as much "collusion and conspiracy" from the other side? I mean heck, consumers organizing to boycott a product is a kind of "collusion" and "conspiracy" as well that is just as arguably "anti-market". Is there anyone who…

youth thinks they are invulnerable.

As you grow older, you realize what the world really is and how vulnerable we really are.

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have misunderstood the analogy. The issue is not whether the collusion is public or private, and it is also not whether it benefits the rich or the poor. The issue is that in general it is illegal to reduce competition by forming a cartel. People to it privately because it is illegal. The one exception for this is forming a cartel of sellers of labor, i.e. a union. Note that, if it were not a labor union, a carte…

Individual unions seem more like companies than like cartels to me. Say there are a few thousand different candlemakers who currently ply their trade individually. Some subset of them decide to join together and incorporate in a company that will negotiate prices and contracts as a group, instead of individually. So they form Candlemakers, Inc., a Delaware corporation and your provider of enterprise candle solutions.…

The difference is, the candlemakers who formed a company are taking a risk with their capital, whereas the candlemakers who formed a union are getting all the upside while someone else takes the risk. Same reasons the airline pilot's union is not interested in forming its own airline, despite this being the obvious way to ensure its people are treated fairly.

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, at least, the reconciliation is to side with the little guy. When there's a massive imbalance of power, there's an idea that you will be more restrictive of the powerful side. The theory is that this is in the public's best interests. So, in theory, if you have two giant companies that control 95% of the distribution of widgets, you might decide that they cannot merge into one entity. But if widgets are ma…

How do you determine who is the "little guy"? Is there some arbitrary pre-specified list/heirarchy of little guys that must be taken as a first principle, or is there an underlying principle determining who is the little guy?

Use your eyes, sort by size.

(More pragmatically, try to estimate who really has the power in a situation; who has other options? Who is dependant on whom? Remember that a company is not a person and does not have physical or emotional needs.)

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, at least, the reconciliation is to side with the little guy. When there's a massive imbalance of power, there's an idea that you will be more restrictive of the powerful side. The theory is that this is in the public's best interests. So, in theory, if you have two giant companies that control 95% of the distribution of widgets, you might decide that they cannot merge into one entity. But if widgets are ma…

How do you determine who is the "little guy"? Is there some arbitrary pre-specified list/heirarchy of little guys that must be taken as a first principle, or is there an underlying principle determining who is the little guy?

Me, personally, I use my judgment. Others go by whomever has the cleverest lawyers or the most well-paid lobbyists.

Or you can cop out and say that since there is no perfect way to write a law relating to this, there should be no law. Which is effectively the law of the jungle. Some people prefer that.

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#75

Not that I'm disagreeing with this outcome at all... But if agreeing not to poach is collusion and conspiracy... Then how is it that it's legal for workers to form unions and strike? Isn't that just as much "collusion and conspiracy" from the other side? I mean heck, consumers organizing to boycott a product is a kind of "collusion" and "conspiracy" as well that is just as arguably "anti-market". Is there anyone who…

You ever heard of union-busting? I mean, since when did tech workers form unions without being fired en masse?

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you determine who is the "little guy"? Is there some arbitrary pre-specified list/heirarchy of little guys that must be taken as a first principle, or is there an underlying principle determining who is the little guy?

Me, personally, I use my judgment. Others go by whomever has the cleverest lawyers or the most well-paid lobbyists. Or you can cop out and say that since there is no perfect way to write a law relating to this, there should be no law. Which is effectively the law of the jungle. Some people prefer that.

"I use my judgement" is the cop out. Crazygringo asked what the underlying principle is to provide justification for an otherwise arbitrary-sounding rule. The underlying principle you provide isn't actually an underlying principle at all - it's just pushing the arbitrary-sounding rule one level up.

You might as well just say "I use my judgement" as a (non-)answer to his original question.

Your suggestion that people asking for a (moral/political) philosophical justification of a law is a "cop-out" is simply anti-intellectual. You might not carefully think through your views, but some of us (i.e. crazygringo) at least try to. I know the idea is a little threatening (you run the risk of discovering your views are wrong, omfg!) and suggests possible tribal disloyalty, but please recognize that crazygringo basically agrees with you [1] and is just trying to understand intellectually why.

[1] I'm interpreting this from the first and last lines of his post.

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#77
post #2

Literally so much collusion in the valley it's insane. Maybe I should write an article about it.

Might want to brush up on your use of "literally" first.

Lets consult the Oxford English Dictionary: http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/109061?redirectedFrom=literall...

"c. colloq. Used to indicate that some (freq. conventional) metaphorical or hyperbolical expression is to be taken in the strongest admissible sense: ‘virtually, as good as’; (also) ‘completely, utterly, absolutely’. Now one of the most common uses, although often considered irregular in standard English since it reverses the original sense of literally (‘not figuratively or metaphorically’)."

Of note the use by Twain: "1876 ‘M. Twain’ Adventures Tom Sawyer ii. 20 And when the middle of the afternoon came, from being a poor poverty-stricken boy in the morning, Tom was literally rolling in wealth."

You may not like this situation but it is way too late to complain about it.

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#78

Not that I'm disagreeing with this outcome at all... But if agreeing not to poach is collusion and conspiracy... Then how is it that it's legal for workers to form unions and strike? Isn't that just as much "collusion and conspiracy" from the other side? I mean heck, consumers organizing to boycott a product is a kind of "collusion" and "conspiracy" as well that is just as arguably "anti-market". Is there anyone who…

Unions have special carve outs in the antitrust laws. Besides that, colluding to limit labor supply isn't necessarily legal either. E.g. The DOJ has threatened the ABA with antitrust enforcement if they use the law school accreditation process to artificially limit the supply of lawyers. This is labor side collusion, but is still considered illegal because it doesn't fall within union carve outs.

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#79
post #15

Not that I'm disagreeing with this outcome at all... But if agreeing not to poach is collusion and conspiracy... Then how is it that it's legal for workers to form unions and strike? Isn't that just as much "collusion and conspiracy" from the other side? I mean heck, consumers organizing to boycott a product is a kind of "collusion" and "conspiracy" as well that is just as arguably "anti-market". Is there anyone who…

Yes, if you believe that you can reduce any use of a word down to its most abstract concept giving you the ability to equate anything to anything else. By those standards collusion is also a tomato, a pair of shoes, and my left ear. Very Zen. But, given nobody else thinks this way, then no, unions are not a conspiracy. A conspiracy is pretty much defined as such when everyone involved constantly tells each other "don…

>But, given nobody else thinks this way, then no, unions are not a conspiracy.

Historically unions were conspiracies until the late 1800s.

Re: Silicon Valley workers may pursue collusion case as group

#80

Not that I'm disagreeing with this outcome at all... But if agreeing not to poach is collusion and conspiracy... Then how is it that it's legal for workers to form unions and strike? Isn't that just as much "collusion and conspiracy" from the other side? I mean heck, consumers organizing to boycott a product is a kind of "collusion" and "conspiracy" as well that is just as arguably "anti-market". Is there anyone who…

How is it that it's legal for workers to form unions and strike? Isn't that just as much "collusion and conspiracy" from the other side?

Employers have a natural organizational advantage, as well as advantages of capital and resources. Given that virtually any workplace has a 1:n relationship with its employees, the bargaining advantage is with the employer. Within a labor market as a whole, a small number of companies may affect a huge number of workers (the case lists a handful of firms and 60,000 or more employees).

This was recognized by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations:

It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment. In the long run, the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate.

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform, combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is everywhere a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals. We seldom, indeed, hear of this combination, because it is the usual, and, one may say, the natural state of things, which nobody ever hears of. Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate. These are always conducted with the utmost silence and secrecy till the moment of execution; and when the workmen yield, as they sometimes do without resistance, though severely felt by them, they are never heard of by other people.

And on for a number of paragraphs.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...

Chapters VII and X of book 1 discuss labour, wages, and various differentiators among them. They're impressively comprehensive and informed, vastly more liberal than you might have been lead to believe of Smith (he really is quite the liberal philosopher), and still highly applicable today. I strongly recommend reading both sections, and more of Smith if at all possible.

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