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Fedora 20 released

docs.fedoraproject.org

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Re: Fedora 20 released

#71

Post by mateuszf »

Sanddancer wrote: post #42
hdevalence wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the second point is quite important -- it provides a rolling hash of the journal contents that you can send to another machine, so that in the event of a break-in, you can detect any tampering with the syslogs. As I recall, this was inspired by the break-in to the kernel.org servers, where the attacker tampered with the log files. That would be impossible with journald.

There are syslog daemons that can provide cryptographic security as well. Alternatively, they can also log directly to an SQL database, use SSL client certificates, etc. Modern syslog daemons are quite powerful.

Yeah, but journald works even on plain stdout, stderr. It's hard to beat that.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#73

Post by darkarmani »

astrodust wrote: post #60
Sanddancer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can, however, again, it's a pretty poor direction that only serves to fragment systems. Many of the complaints that drove the creation of journald could have been better solved through a better default syslogd configuration. Additionally, the journald solution for needs such as remote logging or logging to multiple locations means that you now need to pipe through a process that has a near sole job of piping to ano…

RedHat Fedora makes no apologies for dropping legacy support. Heck, they threw out ifconfig in Fedora 19. It's good to be dropping things like syslogd from the default distribution, and the only reason it was ditched was because syslogd is behind the times. Yes, syslogd does more. If you want those features, install it. Forcing it on everyone, regardless, serves no purpose.

> RedHat Fedora makes no apologies for dropping legacy support. Heck, they threw out ifconfig in Fedora 19.

WTF? Is that because Linux was becoming too easy to use? They have to keep changing it up, so the certification classes have new material to teach. Why wouldn't they keep the command around and wrap whatever re-invented mousetrap replaces it so millions of people can keep typing ifconfig?

Re: Fedora 20 released

#74

Post by brokenparser »

bkor wrote: post #65
brokenparser wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user, I can't tell what service is started when by which config file and where it should go. multi-user.target.wants? default.target.wants? Why are there windows-style .ini files and why are they all symlinks to /usr? Is it forbidden to make changes now? Really, RedHat? It just baffles me whenever I look at it.

You're just grasping at straws.

Not really, I just prefer the Unix philosophy of doing one thing and doing it well. I hated upstart when it was introduced too, it broke stuff so I had to replace it with the unsupported (but fully functional) sysvinit every time. I still don't like the fact that it obsoleted /etc/inittab and that it has both old fashioned /etc/init.d and a /etc/init, because I have to look in 2 places to find a config or script. But it does give me a getty on whatever I set as console on the kernel commandline and it's definitely not broken out of the box any more, so I'm game.

You might think of a tiling window manager as being the greatest invention since sliced bread, but having to configure it in Haskell FFS (I'm looking at you, xmonad) just doesn't jive with me. Nor does any other tiling window manager except WindowMaker (oh, pardon me, that's a tiled window manager). KDE is just as bad because it has too many bells and whistles, it doesn't follow KISS principles. Is that a straw man to you?

Gnome managed to create a nice iteration of gnome-shell with 3.6, but it was riddled with bugs (it still is, albeit to a lesser extent). Then they had to ruin it in 3.8. Categories are for losers, right? Let's remove that. And no one ever needs accessibility, right? Let's git rid of that, too. And what's with all these keyboard layout options? Can't have that, way too useful! Yeah we put some of them back in gnome-tweak-tool but not all because obviously no one ever used them for anything. The final straw for Gnome (for me) was when shell extensions that were never meant to appear in the lock screen, did in fact, appear in the lock screen. The gnome-screensaver they got rid of did one thing really well, but they couldn't find a way to let it display notifications so they axed it.

I'll do my best to make Fedora 20 work because it offers the option of installing MATE, which is Gnome 2.x based. So it packages all of the latest gizmo's (for better or worse) and presents it with a friendly face without an identity crisis (it knows it's a PC, not a tablet). Though I'm on my 3rd install now, at some point the installer stops working resulting in a blinking cursor when I turn it off and on. It works perfectly in a VM, but I want the real deal. (It did pass verification.)

Re: Fedora 20 released

#75

Post by darkarmani »

bkor wrote: post #67
brokenparser wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite an audacious release note. As if millions of users are suddenly going to forget about cat, head, tail, more, less, grep, awk, sed, fmt, etc. etc. that are only still useful if you learn how to journalctl and convert those binary logs back into plain text. I'd like to install Fedora 20 and use it as my main desktop, but both systemd and journald will somehow have to be avoided and worked around because I do…

Millions of users will have "Logs", an UI for the journal. Because journal logs more and allows more things, the UI will be more useful. Easy to do with journal (log attributes with each message), impossible with "/var/log/messages".

You mean a CLI-UI?

Re: Fedora 20 released

#76

Post by keithpeter »

gizzlon wrote: post #29
brokenparser wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite an audacious release note. As if millions of users are suddenly going to forget about cat, head, tail, more, less, grep, awk, sed, fmt, etc. etc. that are only still useful if you learn how to journalctl and convert those binary logs back into plain text. I'd like to install Fedora 20 and use it as my main desktop, but both systemd and journald will somehow have to be avoided and worked around because I do…

> * Ubuntu: decent base system, lousy desktop You mean the unity stuff? I installed the KDE Desktop package and it's great and works great =)

Xubuntu is very nice as well (13.10). I'm dual booting with Debian 7 XCFE to try to reverse engineer the font rendering on Xubuntu which is much nicer to my eyes.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#77

Post by astrodust »

brokenparser wrote: post #62
astrodust wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing upstart is a feature. systemd is not hard, it's just different. Those configuration files are a lot easier to generate and get working correctly .

As a user, I can't tell what service is started when by which config file and where it should go. multi-user.target.wants? default.target.wants? Why are there windows-style .ini files and why are they all symlinks to /usr? Is it forbidden to make changes now? Really, RedHat? It just baffles me whenever I look at it.

What else would you wish for? A registry that can get randomly corrupted, complete with nonsensical keys?

It's baffling, but there's reasoning. systemd is actually pretty slick at the core. A lot of the complexity comes from how flexible it is.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#78

Post by astrodust »

darkarmani wrote: post #73
astrodust wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RedHat Fedora makes no apologies for dropping legacy support. Heck, they threw out ifconfig in Fedora 19. It's good to be dropping things like syslogd from the default distribution, and the only reason it was ditched was because syslogd is behind the times. Yes, syslogd does more. If you want those features, install it. Forcing it on everyone, regardless, serves no purpose.

> RedHat Fedora makes no apologies for dropping legacy support. Heck, they threw out ifconfig in Fedora 19. WTF? Is that because Linux was becoming too easy to use? They have to keep changing it up, so the certification classes have new material to teach. Why wouldn't they keep the command around and wrap whatever re-invented mousetrap replaces it so millions of people can keep typing ifconfig?

It's because change.

Change is how you abandon things that are holding you back. It's how you get rid of the various albatrosses, of which there are many, and clean up the environment for new users.

ifconfig is absolutely not easy to use.

Re: Fedora 20 released

#79

Post by voltagex_ »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #32
Sanddancer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can, however, again, it's a pretty poor direction that only serves to fragment systems. Many of the complaints that drove the creation of journald could have been better solved through a better default syslogd configuration. Additionally, the journald solution for needs such as remote logging or logging to multiple locations means that you now need to pipe through a process that has a near sole job of piping to ano…

I don't think the fragmentation claim stands up to scrutiny. It's so far been adopted by redhat, suse, arch, coreos and with some consideration by debian. The only big name not thinking about it is Ubuntu. I don't think that many of the journald drivers could have been solved by better syslogd configuration, for example journald cryptographically signs each log entry. Even if you get root on my box, you can't edit an…

Sensible command line UIs? You've made a believer out of me.

How does this affect something like a remote syslog? Could I send the syslog output of my router to journalctl?

Re: Fedora 20 released

#80

Post by voltagex_ »

adrianlmm wrote: post #66

Quick question: Anyone has succeeded dual botting Fedora 20 with Windows 8.1 in a UEFI system with secure boot? When I tried the beta it made Windows 8.1 unbootable.

Are you sure it didn't just replace the UEFI default boot entry? You should still be able to boot Windows after getting into GRUB, but if it messed up your EFI partition, that's a bug.
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